Is an MA worth it?

[asacollier]

I followed my pop's advice and applied straight to PhD programs. He said that getting an MA in philosophy is a bad idea, that schools are interested in students who are good enough to go straight to PhD without an MA, and that schools often don't even accept their own MA students. He knows what he is talking about to an extent, but that might have only been true 30 years ago. I want to find out what the general consensus is on an MA in philosophy. Do they help or hinder? Is it a waste of time? If one gets an MA from a good school, is it possible to pursue a PhD there as well?

[TheJabberwock]

A couple of things. First, it does seem to be true that philosophy programs do not accept their own MA students (or BA students) into their PhD programs. Typically they refer to wanting students to come in fresh with a diversity of views, i.e., they want to foster plurality (although I fail to see how this would work, since in applying to a PhD program, they want you to be familiar with their department and who you would want to work with). Whatever the reason given, typically programs do not accept their own.

 

That being said, whether or not it is helpful it depends on your philosophical background. If you have a mediocre undergraduate GPA, have taken a break since graduating, or have gaps in your philosophical background, then it could be worth attending a MA program. It can also allow you to develop a strong writing sample. Furthermore, if your undergrad pedigree was not the best, attending a top MA program can help position you to attend a top program and can allow you get "better" letters of recommendation. All of this depends on how you perform at a MA program (if you do poorly, it would not be too helpful). If you went to a good undergraduate school, did well, have good letters of recommendation and a solid writing sample, then an MA is not for you.

 

A further warning about MA programs, is that it might better to attend a dedicated MA program than one offered by a program that rejected you from their PhD program. Schools like Brandeis, Tufts, and Georgia State are pretty good terminal MA programs. See 

http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/maprog.asp for more information on MA rankings.

 

The last thing to say about an MA is that it can also help you better decide if studying philosophy academically is the right thing for you. For me, attending an MA program made it clear that this is what I want to pursue (and it strengthened my writing sample), whereas as an undergraduate I was unsure if becoming an academic was what I wanted.

[Establishment]

Considering that increasingly more students are being admitted with an MA, one might even argue (and some professors have publicly remarked as such), that MA's are becoming and will eventually become almost a required step.

[jjb919]

I am going to echo what TheJabberwock said. Getting an MA first is, in most cases, a good idea rather than a bad one. It is a great stepping stone to getting into an elite PhD program if your credentials and/or pedigree are not elite coming out of your BA. Of course, the big caveat is it is a good idea only if it is funded. There have been a few threads on Leiter's blog where graduate admissions directors from a number of schools chimed in and noted how in recent year as many as half of their incoming PhD programs had MAs. Unless you are coming from a stellar BA program that prepared you really well for a top PhD program, getting the MA first can really help fill those gaps. It's not for everyone, but I think for most applicants it is a help.

[philstudent1991]

Terminal MAs are a recent development. And I do think there is an edge to having purity on your transcript, i.e. straight from Harvard undergrad to Princeton PhD, or whatever. But since most normal people go to schools that are affordable and close to home, and then while in school discover their love and aptitude for philosophy, they are in a bit of a dilemma. Terminal MAs are an excellent way to bridge the gap between little known school to reputable PhD. Their placement record is proof of that. I would recommend a terminal MA in these kinds of situations without hesitation. (Georgia State, Northern Illinois, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Western Michigan, Ohio, Houston, Virginia Tech, and there are several others)

 

What about other kinds of MAs? 

 

MA from a PhD program: Probably not. You won't get the same attention the PhD students get. Terminal MAs are about the MA students and placing them. PhD programs with MA programs attached are not like this. 

 

Unfunded MA: No. Never. Unless you are independently very wealthy, I cannot recommend an unfunded MA in any circumstance. 

 

Good luck!

[ianfaircloud]

I followed my pop's advice and applied straight to PhD programs. He said that getting an MA in philosophy is a bad idea, that schools are interested in students who are good enough to go straight to PhD without an MA, and that schools often don't even accept their own MA students. He knows what he is talking about to an extent, but that might have only been true 30 years ago. I want to find out what the general consensus is on an MA in philosophy. Do they help or hinder? Is it a waste of time? If one gets an MA from a good school, is it possible to pursue a PhD there as well?

 

I think you're right that your pop's advice is outdated. One needs only to check placement records to see that some people do quite well when applying out of an MA program. Your questions are too broad for me to give very meaningful answers. Do MA programs help? Well, they help some people, sometimes. They are a waste of time sometimes. The last question is more easily answered: generally, people don't get admitted to an MA at a good school, only to be later admitted to the PhD at that same school. As a rule, when a department offers both terminal MA and PhD, that department isn't looking to groom MA students for PhD admissions. Some departments are quite clear about this on their admission pages.

 

MA programs "pad" an academic resume. They show seriousness in philosophy. They give applicants an opportunity to find better letter-writers. They give applicants an opportunity to produce a better writing sample. They give people the chance to see whether philosophy is a good path for them. They improve an academic pedigree in some cases. They surround an applicant with like-minded and like-directed people who ideally support the applicant in her pursuit of the PhD in philosophy. This is now the "conventional wisdom" about MA programs.

 

Philstudent1991 suggests that unfunded MA programs aren't worth it. For most people, that's correct. As he acknowledges, someone with wealth may look at things differently. By "unfunded," I believe he's referring to programs that neither give tuition remission nor scholarship/fellowship/assistantship. Those are indeed a bad deal, financially speaking. In this context, it's always funny to evaluate things in terms of finances. Philosophy is just not a good deal financially. It's financially unwise to pursue philosophy. But there are financially more-responsible and less-responsible ways to pursue philosophy, and in most cases, an unfunded MA is a less-responsible way to do this.

 

Also, Philstudent1991 is right to point out that the terminal MA is a recent development (or maybe "recent trend") in philosophy. As Establishment mentions, it's becoming a "required step" for many applicants. There's been a very silly debate over whether this is a good direction for philosophy. That debate is analogous to law students debating whether it's good that the legal job market sucks and that, consequently, young lawyers need a degree from a high-ranking law school to secure the best legal jobs. All this was discussed in a terrific post a year or two ago at Brian Leiter's blog. Maybe someone can drop the link below. I can't seem to find it.

 

Asacollier, if you'll give us more information about your background and interests, perhaps we can tailor our answers to your situation. It sounds like you're wondering whether to pursue the MA.

[armchair_revolutionary]

I do think having a bit of specific knowledge on Asacollier's situation would be helpful here to give a more structured answer, but in lieu of that I'll offer some of my general thoughts.

 

I certainly think an MA is worth it in most cases and for reasons already given by philstudent1991.

 

 

... since most normal people go to schools that are affordable and close to home, and then while in school discover their love and aptitude for philosophy, they are in a bit of a dilemma. Terminal MAs are an excellent way to bridge the gap between little known school to reputable PhD. Their placement record is proof of that. I would recommend a terminal MA in these kinds of situations without hesitation. (Georgia State, Northern Illinois, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Western Michigan, Ohio, Houston, Virginia Tech, and there are several others)

 

What about other kinds of MAs? 

 

MA from a PhD program: Probably not. You won't get the same attention the PhD students get. Terminal MAs are about the MA students and placing them. PhD programs with MA programs attached are not like this. 

 

Unfunded MA: No. Never. Unless you are independently very wealthy, I cannot recommend an unfunded MA in any circumstance. 

 

 

The exception I make here lies with unfunded MAs. In some cases taking even an unfunded MA offer may be worth (a little) debt. We might imagine a student who has trouble making it into top MA programs due to undergraduate grades that are less than ideal. In this instance I would suggest still considering state schools with terminal MA programs since their tuition is manageable. This is actually the route I went myself, though I was fortunate enough to find out not too long before classes started that I was eligible to have tuition covered due to financial need. Additionally, the school I attended, San Jose State, does offer the TA opportunities in the second year which can cover tuition, or, in my case since tuition was already covered, provide you with a bit of money - about 9k for the year if you teach one course each semester.

 

So, in sum, I would certainly not discourage some students who might not have the most attractive admission profile to consider state schools that are much more financially forgiving that say going to NSSR or Boston College. Additionally, although the state school may not fund you in the same manner that a top MA program would be, with tuition remission and a modest stipend, there nonetheless may be an opportunity here and there to help offset the cost.

 

The flip side, of course, is that most state schools do not carry the brand name of top MA programs and thus may not have as great a placement record. Still, I'd like to think that at SJSU we did pretty well last year placing students at UC Davis, UCLA, and U. of Oregon. 

 

Another issue that I find worthy of mention is one pertinent to my own experience, and that is that MA programs often allow students to figure out if this is what they really want to do and build confidence as an academic in the process. Assuming that I had gotten similar GRE scores and submitted a decent writing sample coming out of my undergraduate program in Politics at UC, Santa Cruz maybe I could have gotten into a PhD program. At the time, however, I did not believe I was ready, and, moreover, I still had a lingering desire to study philosophy just a bit more before jumping into what I imagined would be a PhD program in political science. I'm glad that I took the time to earn an MA as, not only did it build my confidence as an academic, but also changed my academic course as well from poli sci to philosophy/ lit crit.

 

To summarize in a few bullet points:

• Unfunded MAs at affordable state schools may be worth considering for those that have less than stellar undergraduate transcripts or even those that don't wish to move too far from home just yet.
• An MA is a great opportunity to find out more about yourself as an academic and if this is what you really want to do.

[asacollier]

     Thanks for the advice. I'll give some specifics as requested. I have great grades from a medicore school: 3.98 GPA, Summa Cum Laude, Honors, Distinction in Philosophy from the University of South Carolina. My GREs are OK, but not stellar: 159Q/164V. I plan to study my ass off and take it again this year. I really don't know how to evaluate my writing sample. I think it isn't bad but needs some work (and professional criticism). My letters of recommendation are from fairly good people, considering the low pedigree of my school. I don't know what they say, of course. I was rejected from a lot of good PhD programs this year (CUNY, Columbia, UC Riverside, UMass, etc.) If anyone has more tailored advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

     This is probably a good thread for others to give specifics on their situations in case they need the same type of advice. 

[DontFly]

I really don't know how to evaluate my writing sample. I think it isn't bad but needs some work (and professional criticism). My letters of recommendation are from fairly good people, considering the low pedigree of my school. I don't know what they say, of course. I was rejected from a lot of good PhD programs this year (CUNY, Columbia, UC Riverside, UMass, etc.) If anyone has more tailored advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

Presumably all three of your letter writers have (or will have) read your writing sample and gave you detailed response? You could also try presenting it to undergrad conferences. If you have a friend who's got a more successful season this year or who is in grad school already, then you can ask them to take a look at your sample too. Of course you won't change everything they tell you to, but it's a good way to get a second opinion on what doesn't make sense to people who haven't been working on it for so long.

[ianfaircloud]

     Thanks for the advice. I'll give some specifics as requested. I have great grades from a medicore school: 3.98 GPA, Summa Cum Laude, Honors, Distinction in Philosophy from the University of South Carolina. My GREs are OK, but not stellar: 159Q/164V. I plan to study my ass off and take it again this year. I really don't know how to evaluate my writing sample. I think it isn't bad but needs some work (and professional criticism). My letters of recommendation are from fairly good people, considering the low pedigree of my school. I don't know what they say, of course. I was rejected from a lot of good PhD programs this year (CUNY, Columbia, UC Riverside, UMass, etc.) If anyone has more tailored advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

     This is probably a good thread for others to give specifics on their situations in case they need the same type of advice. 

 

Tailored reaction: Get feedback on the writing sample from someone who *really* knows the *particular* topic of your writing sample. Your GREs aren't so bad. It may not be worth retaking. (Costs may outweigh benefits.) University of South Carolina isn't so bad. It's at least known-- it's not an unknown institution. But I understand the worry about pedigree. Your GPA is outstanding and may reduce or eliminate from consideration the milder GRE.