Can I make it into these programs with my low cGPA?

[geofizic]

I am looking for an application review. I recently graduated a top 3 Canadian university with a BSc in Physics. In September 2015, I will be starting a MSc in geophysics at a mid-level Canadian university. After completing my MSc by the summer of 2017, my goal is to apply/attend one of the following PhD programs to start at fall 2017:

- Stanford University (Geological sciences)
- Princeton University (Geosciences)
- Caltech (Geosciences)
- U of Chicago (Geophysical sciences)
- Northwestern (Applied Physics)
- U of Texas – Austin (Geosciences) (Public)
- Stoney Brook (Physics) (Public)
- Harvard (Physics)
- The Ohio State University (Earth Sciences) (Public)
- University of Arizona (Earth Sciences) (Public)
- University of Nevada, Las Vegas (Engineering) (Public)
- Florida international University (Material science) (Public)
- Yale University (Geoscience)
 

There are other groups of interest in Washington state, and Wisconsin -Madison, but these too are public schools. I chose these universities/programs because they have a Professor/research group/center that does similar research to what I will be doing in my master's. I am hoping that ~2 years of experience in the research field will be a great asset when applying to these programs because it can be quiet expensive to train students on the experimental research techniques I will be doing. My master’s research will be hands-on experiments and lab work that includes trips to Argonne and Brookhaven national labs for data collection. Although the field is usually under the geophysics label it is actually more physics/condensed matter physics. Therefore, classical geophysicists don’t have the necessary background to be competitive in the field, and physicist would prefer to go for a physics degree. This could potentially increase my chances of admittance.

 

You can probably tell that most of the universities in the list are easily ranked in the top 10 in any field (either geosciences or physics). Which presents a problem for me because my undergraduate cGPA isn’t impressive at all. The reason I got accepted into a fully funded MSc program was due to relevant research experience, a strong LOR and doing much better in my last 3 semesters GPA wise. In addition, after 2 weeks of searching the internet the best research groups (lab equipment, group size, reserach topics, funding,) are mostly in top private schools. The others are mostly in public universities. Having read on the internet that getting accepted to US grad schools as an international student is more difficult in when applying to public schools. Hence, it could be more likely to be accepted by a high ranking private school than a mid-ranking public school.

Summary:

Undergrad Institution: top 3 Canada
Major(s): Physics
Overall GPA: 3.12
Position in Class: not sure, but the low cGPA speaks for itself

Graduate (Masters) Institution: mid-level Canada
Major(s): Geophysics
Overall GPA: TBD
Type of Student: Canadian

GRE Scores (revised/old version): Have not taken yet
Physics GRE Scores (revised/old version): Have not taken yet, plan on taking for physics 

programs and to reinforce poor cGPA.

Research Experience:
Completed 1 semester research course with an A (3 months, experimental condensed matter).
Awarded an undergraduate research fellowship by department (4 months, experimental condensed matter).

Awards/Honors/Recognitions: 
- Entrance scholarship for MSc, 
- Department scholarship in BSc, - Summer research fellowship in BSc.

Pertinent Activities or Jobs: Will probably be a TA or RA by the time I graduate from the MSc

Any Miscellaneous Accomplishments that Might Help: Will probably have taken a number of physics/geophysics/geology graduate courses. Can’t think of anything else, any suggestions?

Special Bonus Points: Strong recommendation from undergraduate supervisor (supervisor top in his field), probably a recommendation from MSc PI. Relevant research experience so maybe a good fit for most groups.Another thing that works to my advantage is that my PI at my MSc university did his post doc at one of the top ivy league schools in my list, and frequently collaborates with the professors running the research groups at that group and another group in a top public university. My PI also has relations/acquaintances with the profs in Chicago, and Stanford (the research field is really small, particularly in North America). Also, from reviewing numerous application profiles, it seems that it is easier to get accepted to a PhD program in geoscience than in physics, which seems to be much more competitive.

My questions are:
- Given my current situation, is there anything I can do in the next 2 years during my Master’s to help overcome my low undergraduate cGPA? I will be taking Quantum, Condensed matter, crystallography and electrodynamics (Jackson) graduate courses. I hope by doing well in these courses I can strengthen my application.

- This is might be silly to ask, but what are my chances of getting accepted to these groups? do I have a shot, or am I delusional?  

- I have read that a MSc can a help or destroy one's application. In my case, I don’t think I have much choice, a masters will give me a GPA bump, 2 years research, an additional and potentially stronger LOR, and something to add to my CV. I understand that the quality of my research matters, but due to the nature of my work, having a chance to work on the lab techniques and mastering the equipment and procedures, puts me at an advantage when applying to the particular research groups I am targeting. Is there any way this can backfire?

- Is it fair to say that the geosciences graduate programs are “easier” to get into than traditional physics programs?

- If I do research relevant to my PI of interest at the target school, do I stand a better chance of getting in? Can a PI vouch for me?

 
Any comments (good or bad)on my situation would be appreciated. I have contacted a number of senior members on this forum and they have given me priceless advice and encouragement, and I would like to see what other people have to say.

Thanks for reading!!

Edited August 14, 2015 by geofizic

[astaroth27]

Doing a master's was a good play in your situation as that GPA and lack of research experience would have disqualified you from the majority of PhD programs. You are basically doing right now all you can do to make you a good candidate for those schools you listed though I wouldn't apply to quite so many. Refine that list based on your interests in geophysics over the next two years as you learn what you like and don't like in research. Get at least one good quality publication, present at conferences where you can network with potential PIs at the institutions you are interested in, and get a 3.5 or so GPA and you should be fine.

[idiochromatic]

Agree that you should not apply to so many schools. I think 6-8 is the sweet spot. There is also the risk of seeming unfocused or like a prestige-obsessed applicant when asked where else you are applying, and the schools don't have much in common beyond a ranking.

Have you contacted PIs at those schools yet? They are really the ones who determine if you get in/will need to advocate for you given your GPA.

[CornUltimatum]

Before applying to those Universities make sure you have a professor there you are interested in working with. They can let you know if it is worth your time applying that year, sometimes the area of interest you have may not be currently funded and or they may simply not have any graduate positions open yet. This can automatically narrow down your list of prospective schools quickly. 

If you find professors that are interested in working with you, then you should have a shot if you keep your grades up in your MS. It sounds like you are going to have a wealth of experience as well, and probably some pretty good recommendation letter writers when the time comes. 

One professor I had emphasized GPAs and GREs matter because this is the only way to gauge if you will be good for research (very rarely do many graduate applicants have a strong research background). That's what most professors care about, they're searching for potential research partners, so one way you can strengthen your application is getting involved in research opportunities, and publishing some papers. See if you can present at a conference - as this is also a good way to network and meet potential POIs. 

I'm not entirely sure if Geoscience Programs will be "easier," to get into. It depends on your strengths, as what strengths that matter vary between the fields. Some Universities even require a background in Geology in order to apply - although I see you will be getting a Masters in Geophysics, so this may suffice. Sometimes though, because you had an undergraduate degree in Physics, you may be required to take "leveling," undergraduate courses to get a PhD in Geosciences (for instance, if you have never taken a geomorphology course or something, they may require that you take it while you're working on your PhD). When contacting POIs consider asking them how your undergraduate background may effect your chances of admission, or how it could effect the learning curve of future coursework.

On August 14, 2015 at 2:41 PM, geofizic said:

If I do research relevant to my PI of interest at the target school, do I stand a better chance of getting in? Can a PI vouch for me?

YES! I'm going to discuss this concerning Geology, as I am not sure how it works with Physics. This was always emphasized as one of the most important portions of applying to graduate school to me. After all, most Geoscience Graduate programs are research based, so you need to find a professor to do research with (typically). 

-First you must find a professor who is performing research in your area of interest, but don't be afraid to broaden your approach a bit. Some schools may not even consider an applicant who has not contacted a professor. Also note, other schools may ONLY accept students they can fully fund - so if you don't contact a professor this can hinder you chances of admission since a professor may give you an RAship or vouch for your admissions. 
-Send in an inquire email about prospective research opportunities - sometimes they may not have any in particular available, and may even want to work up a project from scratch. It all depends, but you will never know until you contact that professor. Professors will also let you know if they have no positions that will be open - meaning that unless you have another POI at that University you should not apply because you won't be accepted (and it will have nothing to do with what your application holds). 

In most Universities, the POI has a gigantic pull on your admission, especially with funding. For instance, you may not end up qualifying for a TAship through the department, but you may be admitted anyways because your professor has an RAship available for you and they really want to work with you.

So it would be very beneficial to perfrom research that is relevant to whatever your POI is currently researching - it does not have to be directly correlated, you would be surprised how much fields can overlap. Experience means a lot! Even if your research does not relate to whatever PhD project you apply towards later, this can still be okay - there are always going to be relevant parallels you can draw between your previous experiences and how it will allow you to be successful in future projects. 

On the whole I think you are on the right track - good luck on your future endeavors!

[TakeruK]

I know this is an old thread now (maybe someone else in a similar situation will find it helpful), but I am familiar with some of the programs on your list and I might also be familiar with some of the programs you went to in Canada. 

First, I would say that if you are aiming for a Geophysics PhD, then a Physics background is fine. Many geophysics students in my program (one of the ones you're applying to) do not have a geology degree at all and most would have some kind of physics or engineering degree. However, of course, they did take geophysics classes in undergrad and your geophysics Masters degree will be fine to cover that. The other geology will be covered as needed while you're in your PhD program. For example, in my department, there is a "geology 101" class (meant for people with zero geology background, like me) that covers the basic stuff that you need to know to work in an Earth Science department (my work is on planetary science, studying planets around other stars). This is a graduate level class is designed for and required for all incoming planetary science & geophysics students (those with geology experience can take a different class instead). What I am trying to say is that some schools won't really require you to take "leveling" courses (i.e. catching up with undergrad courses) but instead already offer courses that will catch you up as part of your PhD course requirements. This is because most schools have very diverse earth science departments where people come into the program from all sorts of fields (my department admits people with degrees in physics, astronomy, math, biology, chemistry, environmental science, geology, geophysics, and some engineering programs too).

And now to answer your questions:

- Given my current situation, is there anything I can do in the next 2 years during my Master’s to help overcome my low undergraduate cGPA? I will be taking Quantum, Condensed matter, crystallography and electrodynamics (Jackson) graduate courses. I hope by doing well in these courses I can strengthen my application.

For the Earth science programs, these courses won't be particularly helpful. But of course, doing well in these courses will certainly be a good thing, even if the only thing they do is raise your Masters GPA. Doing well in these courses will definitely help in your physics applications. And, if the professors on the committee have some physics background (they should!) then even in the Earth sciences, doing well in a notoriously difficult Physics course such as Jackson E&M would stand out. E&M might not be that relevant to geophysics, but a strong performance will demonstrate your strong quantitative skills. 

Another thing you can do while in your MSc years is to apply for fellowships. Winning a OGS (if you're in Ontario, other provinces have similar things) or a NSERC will help your PhD application.

** But keep in mind that you will be applying to PhD programs about one year from now, after only half of your Masters is finished. If there is a class or a conference or a paper/project you want to do, do it in the first year otherwise it might not be complete by the time you want to apply.

- This is might be silly to ask, but what are my chances of getting accepted to these groups? do I have a shot, or am I delusional?  

It's hard to say what your application will look like after your Masters. If you were to apply right now, I think it would be really hard to get into these schools. But with a better GPA and much more research experience during your Masters, you should have a shot, in my opinion. But I will be honest---your undergrad GPA will still be a part of the equation and at some of the top schools in your list, it will hurt you. 

- I have read that a MSc can a help or destroy one's application. In my case, I don’t think I have much choice, a masters will give me a GPA bump, 2 years research, an additional and potentially stronger LOR, and something to add to my CV. I understand that the quality of my research matters, but due to the nature of my work, having a chance to work on the lab techniques and mastering the equipment and procedures, puts me at an advantage when applying to the particular research groups I am targeting. Is there any way this can backfire?

Most of the time when I tell people that a MSc can "backfire", I'm referring to US masters degrees (either the coursework only terminal degrees or the "consolation Masters"). In these cases, doing poorly in the Masters program will hurt the applicant more than help, in my opinion. But since you're from Canada, the Masters then PhD route is the normal route and it won't be a problem. That said, since the goal of you doing the Masters is to improve your application, you must do better in the Masters program than you did in the undergraduate program if you want it to help. So it could "backfire" if you end up showing that there is no upward trend between you as an undergrad and you as a MSc student. But maybe for this case, "backfire" is the wrong word since you won't really be worse off than without the Masters.

- Is it fair to say that the geosciences graduate programs are “easier” to get into than traditional physics programs?

No. You might get this impression though if you apply "Physics grad school criteria" to the students that apply to Geophysics vs. Physics PhD programs. For example, if you compare the GPA of physics BSc holders who apply to Geophysics PhDs vs. Physics PhDs, you might see that the successful Geophysics PhD applicants appear to have lower GPAs. But that might only be because the most grad schools will weigh relevant coursework more strongly. And for a student in a Physics BSc program, more of the coursework will be relevant to a physics PhD program than a geophysics PhD program, so the geophysics applicants are likely judged on a different set of courses than the physics applicants. But since a Physics BSc is going to have mostly Physics-relevant courses, the overall GPA for those not applying to Physics could be lower. This creates the false impression among Physics students that Physics is the "most rigorous" field, because they see only the highest GPAs going to Physics while lower GPAs go to other fields. But I hope you see what I mean by "false impression" here!

- If I do research relevant to my PI of interest at the target school, do I stand a better chance of getting in? Can a PI vouch for me?

First question is yes. Mostly because when admissions committees are looking for students, they are trying to match students with professors. In particular, they want to match students with professors who need students. I know that at my program, you could be a good match for someone but if they are not interested in having more students, and you're not a good match for anyone else, then you might not get accepted. So, my advice is to not limit your research interests too much. That's the purpose of a PhD, not a BSc or MSc. Don't "put all your eggs in one basket", unless of course, there is really only one person at a particular school you want to work with, then if you can't work with them, you would rather be rejected. But that also comes with a warning because what if you go to that school and then the person turns out to be a jerk, or they leave, or something else happens etc.

Second question: this depends on the school. At some places, you must have a PI vouch for you to get in. At others, professors that want a certain student can let the admissions committee know. Or, they might only have an influence if they are on the committee itself. It varies a lot between departments.

---

Finally, some last comments:

I don't think your list of schools is necessarily "too large" since you have a riskier application (lower undergrad cGPA for these schools). Also, this is about 1 year before you will actually apply, so I would imagine that you will refine and edit this list over that time. If you want a comparison, I'm a Canadian student that did BSc at a top 3, a MSc at a mid-level Canadian school and then applied to top 10 only US PhD programs. I applied to 8 schools total (7 US plus one Canadian). My advice for applying as a Canadian are:

a. Don't apply to US schools that do not offer something better than the best Canadian school you can get into. (Unless you have other reasons to be in the US). 

b. Apply to more private schools than public schools because public schools admit fewer international due to funding issues. So if you are to cut schools from this list, cut the public ones.

c. The goal is not to get as many acceptances as possible! When you make your list of schools, don't make it a list of schools you think you have a good shot at. Instead, make it a list of schools you have a small chance at but actually want to be there. For example, if you apply to 10 schools where you think you have a 20% chance of getting in, then you will likely get 1 to 3 acceptances, which is all you need. A lot of people will apply to 10 schools where they think they have like 70% of getting in, and then end up with 6-8 acceptances. It's nice to see that many acceptance letters, but you can't attend 6-8 schools. It's far better to choose between 1-3 schools you really want to go to than to have 6-8 options that are less exciting.

d. That said, be realistic too. I said the above for effect, but in reality, you don't want to only apply to schools that are "20% chance". You should make your list mostly these schools, then maybe 1 or 2 "70% chance' and one "safety" school (>95% chance). That way, you will have the most chances at getting into a good school you're excited about but if you were wrong about your chances, there should be at least one other option that you would still be happy attending.

[GeoDUDE!]

I'll just say that all my PI's students (i'm a geodynamist) except 1 have been a physics major in undergrad. All three of the geophysics faculty here have degrees(BA/BS) too. Especially if you are modeling focused (instead of observational or exploration geophysics) a physics background is more important than a geology background .

I really encourage you to read Takeruk's post carefully, as its mostly spot on to what I have seen. 

The Earth Science programs you are applying are to  as competitive as top level physics programs. I think there might be the case were lower ranked geoscience programs are a bit easier to get into than lower ranked physics programs, but I think thats mostly because there is still a decent amount of oil funding at lower ranked earth science schools ( I mean outside of the top 30 or so). But at top level programs, in all sciences, funding is generally plentyful (even if faculty there want more, departments always want more money), and they can take as many students as they can hold. If you are a really strong candidate, fit with a particular PI, and a candidate like you doesn't come around often (every few years), they will make sure you have an offer. This is still possible with a low cGPA. It all depends on the type of argument you make with your statement of purpose, interviews (meeting or speaking with POIs is important) and letters of recommendation. With a masters degree, they want to see someone turning into a 3rd year graduate student, not someone who needs the training of a 1st year. They want 5 soild years of research, instead of the 3 or sometimes even 2 they actually get out of candidates coming out of undergrad. This is because, as all graduate students realize, your ability goes up exponentially year to year. What you can accomplish year 1 is very small then what you can accomplish in year 3, if all things go well. You need to show that progression. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by GeoDUDE!

[geofizic]

Hello,

Thought I would give an update on my situation. So far it was been approx. 1 year into my 2 years MSc. I have taken 3 courses, 2 of which were physics. Did really well in those, however, on the 3rd course got an A- which drags my GPA down a bit.

Gained loads of experience in my research field and traveled to the US to do experiments. I won a small travel grant for that ($500). I was fortunate enough to spend 5 weeks in Asia as a research intern (competitive application) and gained more experience and learned about new research techniques.

I guess I did all I could really, except publish something. I tried hard to get a paper out, but wasn't happy with the quality. Also, there was some office politics/lack of support that got in the way. I was really lucky to get the research internship. 

I was a TA for 2 semesters, and this semester is my third. So I also have some teaching experience.

Anyways, now that I read what I posted last year and application time is in, I actually feel less confident about my chances lol. I have contacted profs of interest. Only one gave me a somewhat favorable reply. When contacting this person I chose not to share my undergrad GPA. However, they were interested in my research experience and said I was definitely a good match....... if only I can pass the applications committee. It is kind of convenient, because I have narrowed down my interests to the one professor in only one school that I am targeting. I really don't plan on applying to any other "safety" schools. I just don't see myself going to a place I am not satisfied with.

I still feel the weight of my undergrad GPA, but I guess I won't know until I actually get accepted/rejected. I will be writing the GRE sometime in November, just have to find time to study for it.