How important are the LORs

[Guest]

I don't know any famous scholar, because we don't have any in our school. So I can never have the social networks some other applicants have. Why do they still want LOR? Is that unfair?

[shellybe]

I think that a strong letter of recommendation from a phd in the field you want to study in is good even if he/she is not a famous scholar. none of my letters were from famous scholars...then again, i haven't been accepted yet. :? well, good luck!

[Guest]

I had "glowing" recs from all three faculty members, none who are "famous" so to speak. I have no idea what they wrote about me but I'm sure my LORs helped me a lot in the admissions process. I knew all of them pretty well on a professional and personal level. I have visited several of the programs I have been accepted already and a number of faculty have mentioned my strong LORs.

I think it's more important to have a letter from someone who knows you very well over a longer period of time. I was told by some faculty that programs try to gauge a sense of your personality and habits this way, to determine the fit with the program atmosphere.

[Guest]

If you want to hear the advice that of the some well-known faculty at my university gave me when I was applying, the LORs are the most important thing in your application. It is the thing that makes a difference, not the GRE scores. Well, of course having a well-written statement, CV, and decent grades makes one's application stand out even more, but a lot of applicants have that. The LORs are the one objective thing in the application describing your research potential, your intellectual ability, which is what grad schools really really care for, not your ability to memorize and beat a test like the GRE.

So these profs told me the LORs are what gets people admitted to top places, and it is also very important that the Admission Committee knows the referees by name and reputation. The people writing you LORs would have to know you very well, of course, so they can properly judge you fairly. It is a good idea to ask someone who cares to write you a good letter, not just a generic one where they just change the name of the student. (I saw a prof do that with the students they didn't quite like).

Another thing to consider is whether the referees are established in reputation. How can the Admission Committees tell that even if they do not recognize the profs name? By the professor's rank of course! I was told by one of my referees that letters from Assistant Profs (with no tenure) are not taken as seriously and can actually hurt your application in top schools. So just anyone with a PhD will not do. Do ask an Associate Professor or a Professor for your LORs.

Anyway, I thought I should share this bit of wisdom, in case it helps anyone. It is what got me into top-5 programs. My undergrad university is not a top one, my GREs scores were ok, not great, grades were decent and I have done quite a bit of research work, but I do believe my admittances were due to the letters of references. Some of the schools actually mentioned the letters as being excellent recommendations.

[thomasf]

On the other hand, I can testify that I had at least two letters from full professors who are known as experts in their (and my) field and I haven't had a single acceptance yet, even from schools that were billed as being a sure thing. My grades are stong (summa) and my GREs were mediocre (low math/very high verbal/high AW), but I'm sure my sample was grad quality and my statement was at least well-written. They both knew me for 3 years of undergrad, and I can tell you the letters were very glowing. I was given one to read. I think they were both overconfident of the influence they would have over my admission, and actually counseled me against bothering to apply to some lower tier programs. Boy do I regret listening to them on that point.

Just to be clear, one of them is the co-director of the national association of professors in this field, which is not exactly narrow. I think strong recs like these are prereqs, not guarantees.

[Guest Paddy_Conscience]

In a situation where you've got 600 people applying for half-a-dozen spots, there are no sure things...

[Guest]

I am the Guest with the lengthy post above.

Just to clarify my stand, strong letters of reference by themselves are not sufficient to get you somewhere. They are more like necessary things, as you said. The whole application needs to be good enough, but the LORs are about the most important thing in the package. A lot of applicants make the mistake of concentrating on the GREs and do not spend enough time on getting to know the referees and make sure they know the applicant well enough to care about writing a great reference. All those forms that ask them to rank the applicant are required for a reason. Remember profs have their own reputation to guard too. Why would they write a good reference for someone they do not know? It might come back to them and ruin their integrity if the grad student turns out to be mediocre.

Also, watch out for profs that write "great" references for almost everybody. They might not be taken that seriously by the Admission Committees if they consider most students to be excellent and few to be average. Get my point?

[Guest Paddy_Conscience]

Also, MAKE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that your letters of recommendation get to the right people EARLY. I had a couple of my MA applications scuttled by a late recommendation.

[Guest ogo]

My thought is that good LORs are not at all sufficient to get you noticed. Everybody has a positive LOR -- otherwise they would not have asked their professors to write them. You need LORs from pretigious, name-brand institutions or well-known professors.

[Ralphie]

Two of my references were lukewarm at best, and I wasn't rejected anywhere. I would imagine a genuinely negative reference would hurt, but by the same token they must get sick to the back teeth of generic "best student ever" letters that say nothing about the individual's potential and character. "Andrew is the best student I have ever come across in a prestigious 30 year career. Not only would I recommend him for your institution with funding, but I would also throw in a silver plated poodle and 13 virgins..." Wait, that was for something else..

[Guest guest]

Honesty in LORs is very important, even when the letter comes from a very famous person. All letters that say something like "This is the best student I've ever had" are not taken seriously.

I am told that letters from the famous John Bardeen, which would begin by stating that this was his best ever student, were often thrown out before they were fully read. John Bardeen is the only person to win two Nobel prizes in physics.

Honesty--without exaggeration--is the best policy.

[Guest guest]

to add to the discussion above, i suppose it would be best if the recommenders personally know the profs at the schools you are applying to. The schools that offered me funding had profs that attended the same conferences (especially divisions) with my current profs. They were pretty familar with each other, and some of them worked together when they were attending the same grad school. The rejections I got were from schools where my current advisors didn't have any personal contact with the profs there. Although it might be the two rejections come from better, more competitive schools (Ivy Leagues), i believe the LOR definitely helped me secure the funding offers from Big Ten schools.