PhD in Germany?

[RunnerGrad]

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with German PhDs?  My spouse has a wonderful opportunity to work in Germany, we both have a working ability in German (although his job would be in English), and there are two English-language PhDs in the city where we would be.

I was going to start a PhD here in Canada in Fall 2016 (I've basically been told I will be accepted to my top choice program as long as I jump through a few hoops), but it's hard to pass up an opportunity to live and work in Germany!  We lived there before, and had a wonderful time, so we know we will deal just fine with the culture, and differences between Canada and Germany, etc.  Also, because of my spouse's employment, I will have a permit to work over there, so won't need a student visa or work permit.

Since this German opportunity came up, I have been researching web sites on German PhD programs.  It appears that, in my field, I could either do a "traditional" German doctorate,  or a more "structured" PhD, which is based on the North American model.  Although the PhD programs would be in English, and although my German is very good (it was at a level B2 when we lived there last), I would still make the effort to improve my German before we moved over there again.  It would be another year before we moved overseas, so I would have time to work on my German and to try to contact some professors about the possibility of working in their labs/programs.

So, I've been doing my research and actually reading everything I can about completing a PhD, as a foreigner, in Germany.  I was curious if anyone here at any personal experience with completing a doctorate in Germany?  Or any experience on applying for one?  Any ways the application differs or should differ from Canada/U.S.?  Thanks! 

[kokobanana]

Hi RunnerGrad,

Hopefully I can provide a little insight. I didn't do a PhD in Germany, but I spent a year on a DAAD fellowship and learned quite a bit about the German PhD system in the biological sciences.

- Most German PhD programs seem to require a Masters to apply (not in all cases, but most).
- The traditional PhD model that I think you are referring to is about 3 years in the biological sciences. And the application is very different - it's almost like applying for a job here. Most applicants contact the labs they are interested in directly and apply with a CV and a PS of some kind. No exams were required of the PhD students in the department I worked in. Since a PhD is like a job, you can also get let go / fired before completing your PhD.
- Stipends were not that great, but the cost of living was much lower than where I currently live in the US. If I remember correctly, stipends were about 1000 to 1300 euros a month, and that did not include health insurance (which ran about 200-300 euros a month).
- I had the option to stay and do a masters/phd in Germany, and I decided not to. I had a very basic understanding of German, which made certain day-to-day things more challenging. But the deciding factor for me was independence and mentoring. German biological science labs are often very large and run in a hierarchical manner. As a result, I saw my PI rarely (maybe one-on-one every 4 months?). Directions were given from the PI to the group leader (a sort of senior postdoc) then to the students, and due to the time constraints of the PhD, students didn't seem to be given much freedom to guide their own projects. Instead, they seemed to be told what to do and how to do it (again, this was just my experience at one campus, so I can't say this applies to all labs in Germany).

-And lastly, the German university system has a weird, but important to know limit: You can only stay in the university system for 10 years before getting a permanent faculty position. If you don't get that position by 10 years, you cannot work in any German university (so most move to the private sector). And the 10 year count down starts your first day of your PhD (or for post docs, the first day of their post doc). So if you want to stay in Germany in the long run, you have to get on a faculty track very quickly.

I hope this doesn't come across as too negative. I loved my experience in Germany and I miss my friends dearly, but I learned that there are major differences between German and American PhD programs, and the German system just wasn't for me.

 

 

[RunnerGrad]

Thanks @kokobanana, I appreciate you sharing your experience with me.  I will have a master's by the end of next summer (August 2016), so that's not an issue (it's pretty common in most programs here in Canada to require the master's before the PhD as well, although there are a few exceptions).

I'm not too worried about my stipend.  My husband will be making more than enough to support the two of us, so any stipend I earn will just be extra savings.  I'll also have health insurance through my spouse (and was very impressed with the German medical system last time we lived there - very quick and efficient compared to Canada!)  I also don't expect to stay in the German university system - we'll have to return to Canada after 4-5 years in Germany (it's just the nature of his job).

I'm not surprised that things are very hierarchical in the German system, given my previous experience living there.  I'm thinking that maybe one of the more structured PhD programs would be worth investigating further, as opposed to the traditional doctorates.  They seem geared to international students.

Thanks again for sharing your experience!

[Flou]

Hey RunnerGrad,

i just came across your post.

Maybe I'll can help you a little since I am German and a PhD Student in Germany (but I currently live in the US). Im not sure how helpful i can be since Im a PhD Student in Law and "our" system is a little special. Normally you do not formally apply for a doctoral programme like you would for a Master. All you need is a doctoral supervisor who is willing to accept you as a PhD-Candidate. In addition, each University has a catalogue of requirements that you have to meet (e.g. a Masters degree). You apply for the doctoral programme like you would apply for a job. 

Maybe there are alternatives in natural sciences like PhD-Programmes in a more anglo-saxon kind of way. 

Do you already have a preference? If so: Send me the link and I'll check it out for you.

[RunnerGrad]

Thanks Flou.  I'm looking at a combination of the "traditional" doctorates in Germany and the "structured" PhDs that are more like a North American PhD (although shorter at 3-4 years, although 4 years is pretty typical in Canada).  Now that I've found plenty of information on how the application process works, I guess I'm mostly wondering if life in grad school differs in Germany.  

[fuzzylogician]

The main differences are along two (related) lines. First, a PhD student in Europe is often thought of as an employee. You work for a certain professor on a certain project of their choosing. At least in my field, that's not how things are done in North America. Here you have the option of choosing your research topic. Another difference is that there is no coursework phase, you are deemed sufficiently trained to carry out your project from day 1. People tend to be much more on top of their work hours, so you can expect your advisor to be gone, not doing any work, and not responding to any emails, over the weekends and in the evenings. Because the PhD is like a job, I think people are sometimes not as friendly with one another. You don't want to hang out with your boss and co-workers at parties, necessarily. Second, people seem more lonely in Europe. There aren't very many courses you can take, and often there are very few talks, reading groups, and events. People don't often talk to one another about their research outside of their research group meeting, you just have your project and you do it, people seem not as comfortable asking for help or admitting they have a problem. (These impressions are a combination of my opinion from being there and of my friends who have done/are doing their PhD in Germany, but of course it's a small sample size so take this with a grain of salt). 

There are nice things about the work-life balance and finishing faster. The salary can be better, and the health system is much better in Germany, in my opinion. For me, the main draw of the North American model was the coursework phase. I already had a Masters, but I felt like I wanted to learn more before I commit to one project (as in the European model) and am deemed knowledgeable enough. I chose a program where it was customary to work with multiple profs and where there were always talks and events going on, and I enjoyed that a lot. So, for me, I think that was the right decision. But if you feel grounded enough in your field and are happy to create your own circle of friends outside academia, I think Germany has a lot going for it.

[RunnerGrad]

Thanks @fuzzylogician.  That sounds very much like my experience in the workforce when I lived in Germany.  People were dedicated to their work while at work, but outside of work they didn't answer work-related emails or phone calls.  I definitely liked that kind of work-life balance.  I also liked living in Bavaria and having all the Catholic feast days as statutory holidays!

One of the draws of the German PhD for me is the lack of coursework.  So much of my coursework for my master's has been disappointing.  I'm at what is considered to be one of the best, if not the best university in Canada, and yet a bunch of my master's coursework has just been a repeat of my undergraduate studies, maybe with one or two new concepts thrown in. I have had a couple of really great courses, where I learned a lot and was really challenged, but those were the minority.

Thanks again.