Lab Joining Dilemas

[bsharpe269]

I'm finishing up my 1st year in a STEM PhD program and am nearing the point where I need to choose my lab. I am frustrated with my lab situations and at a loss of what to do. If anyone can offer input then I'd really appreciate it.

Lab 1: Full professor. Solid Funding. Well known in the field. His students graduate with lots of papers. Great research fit but I was very uncomfortable throughout the rotation and the PI clearly wasn't a fan of my introverted personality. If its possible to network too much then he does... His students spend around half of their working hours and a couple evenings a week entertaining speakers (not an exaggeration). He uses connections to his advantage in publishing which I get is normal but I think he pushes it too far though and into an unethical area. I felt VERY uncomfortable in this lab.

Lab 2: Also great research fit. New PI but emerging hot shot. Tons of funding. Lab is only a few years old but is already producing very high impact work. it sounds great on paper but I felt very unhappy. On a scale from 1 to 10 where 1 is "heavily involved PI" and 10 is "absurdly independent", I want a lab that is a 9-10 and the PI is a 2. I can compromise on most things but I really need independence in my research to feel happy. My creativity felt stifled and I felt like I was in a prison. This PI is a genuinely good guy though and I think he would be willing to meet me in the middle on working styles but i felt so imprisoned and miserable that I'm nervous to give it another try.

Lab 3: I liked the PI and lab environment. The research was a poor fit though. I think I would get bored with this work and wouldn't gain many of the skills I really want. Given the nature of the work I would be doing in this lab, I don't even think it would be possible to collaborate to introduce the other skills.

So now I am in Lab 4 and it is the PERFECT fit. Hands off yet available PI. I get along great with the other students. My days fly by and the lab feels so homey. My work in this lab would let me combine my current skills with new ones that would make me very marketable. I want to join this lab SO bad. The problem with lab 4 is funding. The PI finds out whether his grant gets renewed at the end of this summer. If it doesn't get renewed then the department won't let me join his lab. It would be beneficial to join a lab earlier than that anyway... it would be ideal to join one in the next few months but I can hold off until the fall semester if I need to. There are a couple relevant outside fellowships I can apply for in the fall but that doesn't help me much now... 

I'm really unsure of what to do and feel very upset about this. I was unhappy during my first 3 rotations and felt unsure of whether I would find a great fit lab. Now I found one that I love but don't know if I'll be able to join. I'm unsure of how to proceed now. Should I stay in this lab that I love for now while I wait and hope for the best? Do I do more rotations in the meantime to try to find another lab I really like? I've already rotated with all of the clear research fits but I could try to find something else. Should I try to go with one of the labs I've already rotated in? If anyone has advice then please share it! I need to figure out how to proceed and am very conflicted.

[Humulus_lupulus]

Are any of the research areas of these professors related? I was between two labs, sort of like lab 3 and lab 4 for you. I couldn't decide between either of them, but ultimately, I didn't have to! I got funding from the PI who always has money, and I still get to work with the one who doesn't get funded as well for projects I have an interest in. They co-advise me. You may approach lab 4's PI and suggest a co-advising situation if it makes sense.

Also, putting in effort too apply for funding yourself goes a LONG way. I applied for the NSF GRFP as well as a univeristy fellowship because my one PI with all the money suggested it, and doing that gave me a lot of credit with him. Fortunately, I got the university fellowship, but I didn't learn about it until after I was admitted and told I had funding from him anyway. Even if you can't do that, offer to help with writing a proposal, because it will show you are committed and interested.

Good luck--do anything you can to get into lab 4, or talk to lab 3 about possibly getting into a different kind of research that is a better fit. My one advisor is totally cool with adapting research to the person and will let projects, specifically PhD projects which aren't clearly laid out in proposals, go in the direction the student takes them.

[ZeChocMoose]

I can see myself doing 1 of 2 options depending how risk adverse I felt:

(1). (Most risky) I would hold out for Lab 4 and then if the professor didn't get funding - do some new lab rotations in the fall.  My only concern with this is what happens with your funding for your second year if you haven't joined a lab yet?

(2) (Least risky).  Join Lab 2 - that seems like the least worse lab for you.  I know you said you felt like you were in prison (really - not good!) - but is it possible that the PI is just like that with new people to the lab and would back off to about a 5 on the independence scale?  Could you ask advance students in the lab?  If that is not the case - could you try to reset your perspective about this so while you have a more hands on PI that is not your preference, perhaps there are benefits to that that you don't see quite yet - i.e. less floundering/going down rabbit holes? 

 

Edited March 20, 2016 by ZeChocMoose

[CreamyDog69]

On 3/20/2016 at 1:47 AM, ZeChocMoose said:

oin Lab 2 - that seems like the least worse lab for you.  I know you said you felt like you were in prison (really - not good!) - but is it possible that the PI is just like that with new people to the lab and would back off to about a 5 on the independence scale?  Could you ask advance students in the lab?  If that is not the case - could you try to reset your perspective about this so while you have a more hands on PI that is not your preference, perhaps there are benefits to that that you don't see quite yet - i.e. less floundering/going down rabbit holes? 

Great advice, though, I doubt the PI is only like that with new students. New PI's generally keep their students close because their futures are significantly more intertwined with each other in a way someone with tenure doesn't have to worry about. 

[kimmibeans]

I was actually in a similar situation to you. My perfect fit lab did not have the funding to take me, so I had to find another one. I ended up in a lab that I love, but it is completely removed from my field of interest (I'm interested in virology and host-pathogen interactions, but I'm in a lab focused on cardiac metabolism and cell death mechanisms). However, I love my PI and I get along well with everyone else in the lab, and so far I'm not bored with the work.

It may not be a perfect fit, but talk to lab 3 and see what projects they have going. If you can find something that you find interesting, go for it. It won't be perfect, but you can always find a better fit for your post-doc when there are more options open to you. At the end of the day, the people you are working with are more important than the work that you are doing. If you love the lab, you won't get bored with the work, even if it is not what you thought you wanted to do.

[TakeruK]

This response is a little slow (was traveling, sorry). Hope it's still helpful.

My opinion is that you still aim for Lab 4 as your chosen lab but have a backup plan. Whether this is Lab 2 or Lab 3 is up to you (I think Lab 2 is more sustainable for me, but we are different people!). Lab 1 sounds like a definite bad fit. 

I think that although it's better to have a lab earlier than "end of summer", it's worth waiting a few months to have a chance at the right lab fit. If you do get into Lab 4, then the following X years of a great fit lab will greatly outweigh starting a few months "late". 

I think what you should do is have a serious conversation with the Lab 4 PI. Make sure they are as enthusiastic about you as you are about them. Talk to them to ensure there is no miscommunication (i.e. they really do want you and the only thing that is preventing them form taking you right now is that they don't know about funding until the end of summer). You don't want to be in a place where you think Lab 4 is a viable option and then the PI declines you even if they get the funding. Sometimes PIs use the lack of funding as a reason to say no nicely, so make sure that everything is all set. 

If this is the case, then you should also have a frank conversation about what happens if the funding doesn't go through. Make a plan with the Lab 4 PI. Is it possible for you to be funded on TA work? Are you applying for fellowships, e.g NSF GRFP? Talk about all the options and scenarios. Start with these example scenarios where it's just "contained" in you and Lab 4. Then, move onto other scenarios that involve collaborating or other labs. For example, is it possible for you to split your time between Lab 2 and Lab 4 over the summer, with both PIs on board and knowing that if Lab 4's funding comes through, you would switch to Lab 4 full time and if it doesn't, then you'd switch to Lab 2 full time? This is less ideal because it means one PI will have a half-time student in the lab that will leave after the summer, but if there is work that could be done with this timescale, then it could work out. You never know unless you ask / bring it up. Alternatively, would Lab 2 (or Lab 3) still accept you as a student if you began in the fall instead of the summer? That way, you would just do an additional rotation (or spend more time continuing on rotation work with one of the labs) over the summer. This would likely require coordination with the department as well. Basically, I'm suggesting you get an exception to the regular timeline because of the funding complication.

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

avoid lab1 like the plague.

[sqxz]

@bsharpe269 The unsolicited advice I received from at least two people when I was choosing a lab was to place more weight on your working relationship with the PI/lab colleagues than your research fit. This advice was not particularly relevant to my situation, but it stuck with me since the people who offered it went so far out of their way to do so. Now having worked in my current lab for ~1.5 years, I could not agree with their advice more. Grad school is hard. Even in the best of circumstances, it is mentally, emotionally, and physically draining, and I think the stresses you face as a grad student will only be multiplied if not exponentiated if something like a poor working relationship with your PI/lab colleagues is making you unhappy for 5, 6, 7+ years of your life. This is a PhD we're talking about, so there should be no way you won't be challenged doing whatever research any lab does. Perhaps it won't be exactly what you first envisioned for yourself, but I think it's far easier to grow to love a new area of research than it is to try to force yourself to work in ways that accommodate a particular management style.

The bottom line is, I would avoid Lab 1 and 2. Due to the ambition of PI 2, I think it is unlikely that you will be able to negotiate a new management style because of the point made by Ignis. (I.e., even if you bring your concerns to him and he is sympathetic, I don't think he'll be able to help himself because his future as faculty is tied up in your results.) If you can't make Lab 4 work out, I would advise reconsidering Lab 3 or looking at other labs with less than perfect research fits. Have you had a frank conversation with PI 3 about your concerns? Perhaps PI 3 is very open to incorporating new techniques into their lab and establishing new collaborations if it's something the grad student wants. You'll never know for sure unless you ask.

I also like the idea of being co-advised, but I think it's fair to say that if only one PI pays you, they are going to have much more leverage to exert influence over you.

[bsharpe269]

Thanks for the advice guys! It is very useful to get opinions of others who are further along in their PhDs in these sorts of situations. 

I think I have come to like lab 4 even more since I wrote this a month ago! It really is a great fit all around. Also, the PI has made his interest having me join the lab clear so I don't think that he is using funding as an easy way to turn me down. My background is outside of what they do but compliments it. I think that we both see the combo of his expertise and my background as an opportunity to do really cool work. Though before I move forward with the mindset that I want to join that lab, I will confirm this and make sure we are both very interested in figuring funding out.

As far as other funding opportunities go... I am in the process of applying for a F31 and a couple other things. I'm putting a lot of effort into these applications so hopefully it works out. I have a MS already so I'm ineligible some others like the GRFP. Also, unfortunately TAing isn't an option in my department. I'm not sure why... maybe because we are in a med school? We are funded through an NIH training grant when we start and then its expected that we are funded by our PI unless we get external funding.

I think my plan is to first chat with the lab4 PI again and confirm that we are on the same page. If so, then I'll put everything I've got into my grant applications and hope that either that or the PI's funding works out. In the meantime I'll talk to the PI about alternative possibilities like a co-mentor situation. I could see if lab 2 or 3 would be open to something like this. If all of that fails then I'll guess I'll have to choose between joining either lab2 or 3 in the fall. I'm hoping for the best!

Edited April 20, 2016 by bsharpe269