Cheaters...

[Genomic Repairman]

Have any of you guys encountered cheaters yet in graduate school? I had my first experience with one in class last semester as I have previously blogged about. It really was sad to see the administration sit on their hands and turn a blind eye because the student was international and they didn't want to kick the kid out of school and get him deported. And for a guy who has sat on the honor board this really chapped my behind.

[prolixity]

Have any of you guys encountered cheaters yet in graduate school? I had my first experience with one in class last semester as I have previously blogged about. It really was sad to see the administration sit on their hands and turn a blind eye because the student was international and they didn't want to kick the kid out of school and get him deported. And for a guy who has sat on the honor board this really chapped my behind.

I'm sure there is more going on there than you're privy to. Regardless of his value to his PI, I'm sure he got his ass handed to him, but perhaps not publicly.

[Genomic Repairman]

Sadly that is all that happened as a student in the lab and another PI pulled me aside to tell me. You would be surprised now by what grad schools let slip through the cracks these days.

[prolixity]

Sadly that is all that happened as a student in the lab and another PI pulled me aside to tell me. You would be surprised now by what grad schools let slip through the cracks these days.

Wow, I am shocked.

The guy must have a stellar research record.

[Genomic Repairman]

No sadly he is mediocre at best, I think the PI who handles the educational side of the house didn't feel like dealing with the paperwork and the shame of having a cheater that was rotating in their lab. So now we have a secretary sit in with us when we take exams now.

[UnlikelyGrad]

Have any of you guys encountered cheaters yet in graduate school? I had my first experience with one in class last semester as I have previously blogged about. It really was sad to see the administration sit on their hands and turn a blind eye because the student was international and they didn't want to kick the kid out of school and get him deported. And for a guy who has sat on the honor board this really chapped my behind.

Yup. Had a student who cheated. This was his second offense; he was suspended from school. (He was also an international student FWIW)

http://unlikelygrad.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/why-cheating-doesnt-pay/

[zilch]

I've known many who cheated their way through undergrad to stellar GPAs and are now in grad school (some are even in highly prestigious institutions). I have no reason to believe that they've changed so I assume they're still doing. The most cheating that I've come across in grad school are people who cheat on homework, but in my curriculum the hw is never worth more than 15% and no one seems to care at all if people are copying or using solutions guides.

Anecdotal evidence during my undergrad suggested that whenever anyone was caught cheating on exams they were almost always caught in rather large groups of 6 or more students who had combined forces like Voltron, except evil and not righteous.

[fuzzylogician]

I TAed an undergrad advanced course last year that was required of some MA students in our department who lacked previous training. These are people who I also took classes with (talk about awkward). It's customary and even encouraged for people to work together on assignments, so there were several groups working together throughout the semester. At the end of the course we gave a take-home exam....and we caught a group of 5 individuals, 2 of whom were MA students, cheating. It was very obvious--they chose the same variable names, they made the exact same mistakes in the exact same places, they (and only they) completely misinterpreted two whole questions. Even if I hadn't had to fail them, none of them got a passing grade, even with the joint efforts. Ugh. How incredibly uncomfortable it is to have to report peers as cheaters! But the worst of it was that the department preferred to sweep it all under the rug and give them the lowest possible passing grade than admit that its students were messing up so badly.

I haven't seen behavior this bad in my current program yet, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to hear it exists.

[piccgeek]

This is depressing.

It's harder to "cheat" as such in English...plagiarized papers aren't that hard to catch, and it's not like we have homework problem sets or anything. Still, I know a guy who didn't read the novel he was writing his final paper on--his wife (an English student at another school) read it for him and marked the significant passages (knowing his theoretical approach) so he could quote them. *facepalm*

[RH7]

...to be honest, why should schools give a crap that people cheat? People cheat in life. That's just how it works.

[liszt85]

...to be honest, why should schools give a crap that people cheat? People cheat in life. That's just how it works.

May the best cheat win?

What are you trying to say here? All great scientists and academics are the best cheats of their respective generations? What do you mean by "that is how it works"? Or are you trying to say that cheating doesn't have a (negative) correlation with how good a scientist/academic you will become? Either way, you are wrong.

[liszt85]

I TAed an undergrad advanced course last year that was required of some MA students in our department who lacked previous training. These are people who I also took classes with (talk about awkward). It's customary and even encouraged for people to work together on assignments, so there were several groups working together throughout the semester. At the end of the course we gave a take-home exam....and we caught a group of 5 individuals, 2 of whom were MA students, cheating. It was very obvious--they chose the same variable names, they made the exact same mistakes in the exact same places, they (and only they) completely misinterpreted two whole questions. Even if I hadn't had to fail them, none of them got a passing grade, even with the joint efforts. Ugh. How incredibly uncomfortable it is to have to report peers as cheaters! But the worst of it was that the department preferred to sweep it all under the rug and give them the lowest possible passing grade than admit that its students were messing up so badly.

I haven't seen behavior this bad in my current program yet, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to hear it exists.

I'm surprised that this happens in a place like MIT. Now I'm inclined to think that this probably is a common occurrence. I did syntax with Prof Culicover last quarter. It was the hardest course (in terms of workload) I've done my entire life.. I worked HARD. I thought the students in the class were extremely bright as well. It was a great experience to be in a class of brilliant students..it was very intellectually stimulating. I'm sure cheaters would spoil the entire atmosphere. Fortunately, am yet to come across cheaters here. So it irks me when people say "what's wrong? That's just how things work..get over it!"

[fuzzylogician]

I'm surprised that this happens in a place like MIT. Now I'm inclined to think that this probably is a common occurrence. I did syntax with Prof Culicover last quarter. It was the hardest course (in terms of workload) I've done my entire life.. I worked HARD. I thought the students in the class were extremely bright as well. It was a great experience to be in a class of brilliant students..it was very intellectually stimulating. I'm sure cheaters would spoil the entire atmosphere. Fortunately, am yet to come across cheaters here. So it irks me when people say "what's wrong? That's just how things work..get over it!"

That story was not about MIT. I don't think anything half as bad happens here; personally I've never encountered any kind of cheating, but I'm hedging because I've only been here a semester.

Yes, cheating happens, I am sure. Schools should give a crap because cheaters give them a bad reputation, of places that unleash on the community people who will hurt others in order to advance, who are not knowledgeable or creative enough to do their own work. Would you hire someone from a school that has a reputation for not caring if their students are trained well enough to deserve their degree (and are therefore likely to steal your work to publish, make tenure, etc)? Would you go to grad school at a place that has that kind of a reputation? I wouldn't.

[liszt85]

That story was not about MIT. I don't think anything half as bad happens here

Glad to hear that! I guess one reason why American graduate education is so well regarded is precisely because schools care (deeply) about plagiarism and take it very seriously.

[Genomic Repairman]

Sadly my friend even cheating occurs in the hallowed halls of MIT. Granted that case is with undergrads, but it just drives the point home that it can happen at any institution. And don't forget the case of what happened in Baltimore Laboratory at MIT, there are few institutions that do not have some scandal associated with their name. There will always be cheaters and liars, but as long as you are honest and have integrity your words and work will stand up to even the most scrutiny.

[RH7]

May the best cheat win?

What are you trying to say here? All great scientists and academics are the best cheats of their respective generations? What do you mean by "that is how it works"? Or are you trying to say that cheating doesn't have a (negative) correlation with how good a scientist/academic you will become? Either way, you are wrong.

Many, many top statesmen cheat, CEOs cheat, lawyers cheat, doctors cheat, teachers cheat, clerks cheat, husbands cheat, wives cheat, etc. Students cheating? NO??!!

What I'm saying is that it happens everywhere. So the fact that some students at top institutions are cheating shouldn't really be a surprise.

[naptown]

Many, many top statesmen cheat, CEOs cheat, lawyers cheat, doctors cheat, teachers cheat, clerks cheat, husbands cheat, wives cheat, etc. Students cheating? NO??!!

What I'm saying is that it happens everywhere. So the fact that some students at top institutions are cheating shouldn't really be a surprise.

No, it's not surprising, but it's definitely not normal or acceptable.

[RH7]

<br>No, it's not surprising, but it's definitely not normal or acceptable.<br>

<br><br>Fair point Edited February 15, 2010 by Drive Like June

[liszt85]

<br><br>Fair point

By thinking so, you are oontradicting yourself (cf.: "Why should schools give a crap that students cheat?")

You think its fair to say that cheating is not normal nor acceptable and still say schools have no business caring about it?

"Not surprising" but "not normal"? I thought one was the opposite of the other (not very precisely of course but for most purposes, this is a justified assumption), does it really matter here? What exactly are you trying to say by agreeing with "not normal" and at the same time arguing "not surprising..so go mind your own business"?

Almost too philosophical for my taste.

[RH7]

By thinking so, you are oontradicting yourself (cf.: "Why should schools give a crap that students cheat?")

You think its fair to say that cheating is not normal nor acceptable and still say schools have no business caring about it?

"Not surprising" but "not normal"? I thought one was the opposite of the other (not very precisely of course but for most purposes, this is a justified assumption), does it really matter here? What exactly are you trying to say by agreeing with "not normal" and at the same time arguing "not surprising..so go mind your own business"?

Almost too philosophical for my taste.

Oh my I'm terribly sorry, I thought a question mark was used to denote a question, not a statement.

[liszt85]

Oh my I'm terribly sorry, I thought a question mark was used to denote a question, not a statement.

You mean this: "why should schools give a crap that people cheat? People cheat in life. That's just how it works." ??

Oh my, I'm terribly sorry..yours was a genuine question (quoted above), not a rhetorical one, not a statement. I apologize for understanding it how it ought to have been understood but I guess you didn't mean to convey what you did convey.

[RH7]

You mean this: "why should schools give a crap that people cheat? People cheat in life. That's just how it works." ??

Oh my, I'm terribly sorry..yours was a genuine question (quoted above), not a rhetorical one, not a statement. I apologize for understanding it how it ought to have been understood but I guess you didn't mean to convey what you did convey.

Yes! It was indeed a question, and not intended to be rhetorical! The latter two are statements. Take it or leave it, but it ends at that.

Jesus Christ...

[naptown]

I thought liszt was attacking me at first (by saying "not surprising" and "not normal" were nearly perfect antonyms).

But then you guys just went at it, tete-a-tete.

Anyway, what I meant by "not surprising" is yes, we realize it happens. It happens everywhere. No one is naive enough to say "oh my good golly gosh! someone committed misconduct in grad school!"

But what I meant by "not normal" is that most grad students and most academics don't cheat. So it's not the norm. It also shouldn't be normalized, where we give up and stop caring about dishonesty and its consequences. I think the reason everyone piled on RH7 is because that is what he/she suggested - that academic cheating is within the realm of decent behavior or simply to be expected and accepted w/o protest. I think we all (even RH7) disagree with that position, and believe that dishonesty, when exposed, needs to be punished (very) harshly. And to me that's the interesting (and disturbing) thing about this thread... the various reasons that faculty and universities won't take a stand or do turn a blind eye to cheating.

Edited February 16, 2010 by naptown

[liszt85]

Yes! It was indeed a question, and not intended to be rhetorical! The latter two are statements. Take it or leave it, but it ends at that.

Jesus Christ...

Those two statements in combination with the first question makes the question a rhetorical one. I'm sure anybody with a bit of sense in here will agree with me on this. Its understandable that you would try to defend yourself when faced with glaring inconsistencies in your statements..its natural, not surprising but not normal either (whatever this means).

Allah...

[liszt85]

But what I meant by "not normal" is that most grad students and most academics don't cheat. So it's not the norm. It also shouldn't be normalized, where we give up and stop caring about dishonesty and its consequences.

I agree with you. However, do you think RH7 really meant the above in his/her initial posts? He/she claims he/she did but I think its quite laughable because its just not true. His/her is a vain post hoc attempt at justifying what was evidently a foolish thing for a grad student/prospective grad student to be saying.