Stud. Theol.

Dogmatist, I am a philosopher/theologian who has interests that cross philosophical and religious lines, as yours apparently do. I have MAs in philosophy (in the analytic tradition) and theology. The fact is that a focus in philosophy of religion and even worse, philosophical theology (if you are able to make that distinction), will simply put you behind the 8 ball at most places. Even at schools where there are "weighty" faculty members who do work in philosophy of religion, you are fighting an uphill battle unless you can put a more traditional foot forward. I have interests in free will and the nature of universals as well, so I put that foot forward with ph.d. programs and only mentioned, as a follow up, that I'm also interested in philosophy of religion. On top of that, I applied to places where phil of religion is well established. After all that I got rejected by 10 philosophy programs and got accepted by 1 religion program that is heavily philosophical in orientation. Three of my advisors have ph.d.s in analytic philosophy in addition to their training in religion. So I guess I got lucky. You'll really need to look at religion programs rather than philosophy of programs. The kind of philosophy you are trying to do (as Tom mentioned) will not open doors at most of the "Gourmet" programs. I don't mean to pile on but the notion of multiple, incomensurate, absolute truths simply won't fly in those places. You can however do that sort of thing in a philosophy of religion program within a religion department at, say, GTU or Boston. (From my perspective that's unfortunate, but you may consider it fortunate.) If you are thinking of sticking to philosophy programs and presenting a more "mainstream" project I would suggest Notre Dame, WashU SLU, Purdue, Iowa, or Indiana. Those places are are pretty friendly to phil of religion.

I'm going to Claremont. They only gave me a 50% tuition remission but CGU only charges $1500 a semester starting in the third year. So the financial burden is not that bad. Plus, the only place I really wanted to go was Claremont and, luckily, they're the only place that accepted me. I was also very fortunate to get a $12,000 per year stipend... from my dad. What a loser... but I'll take it. My GPA was: MA Philosophy - 3.9 MA Theology - 3.9 GRE - Q: 630, V: 630, A: 6 (I got a better analytic than Ting... small victory dance)

Fortuna, You're right, Oxford doesn't require it. I don't know why any non-US institution would. (I can understand why US institutions do, though I wish they wouldn't.) Apparently Brian Leftow personally requires it... or he just wanted it in my case. As I understand it, individual professors have much more control over the admissions processes in the British system than in the US. I think he had a number of good candidates that he couldn't really differentiate so he just wanted some objective tool for doing that.

Also, if anyone is interested in philosophy of religion and comes from an evangelical background, you may want to contact Brian Leftow at Oxford. I emailed him a few times last year with my interests. He essentially said that I'd get in and he'd supervise my work if I got a 1400 on the GRE. I thought that was odd, but it certainly leaves the door open. Anyone can get a 1400 if are simply dedicated to it. The GRE is basically a trick test and if you know your ways around the tricks you'll get the score you need. (Evidenced by the fact that everyone I knew who became a GRE trainer and basically internalized the whole thing--how to take the test, the kinds of questions you face, got over the nerves--got better than 1400. Becoming a trainer made the difference for them; they certainly didn't get magically smarter.) I didn't follow through because I dread taking the GRE again and, with some thought, I decided that I'm in no position to move to the UK.

In the ND philosophy department you're going to see grads from good MA phil programs like NIU, Western Michigan, and at least 1 every year from Talbot School of Theology/Biola University. I personally know about 5 people in the program from degree programs that I've been in. There will also be a very large number of evangelical and theologically conservative Catholics in their classes. So if you have an MA in philosophy and a are interested in philosophical questions that are of interest to conservative, evangelical, Catholic thinkers (like open theism, perfect being theology, God and time, Molinism) then you probably have a fair shot.

How much does one expect to get if they are give a "good" stipend? I'm guessing that in many cases (most?) some part time work is still necessary. (?)

I plan to talk to a faculty member at my prospective program about funding soon. As I mentioned, I got a 50% fellowship but he said he'd be willing to discuss it. (Not sure if that means there's a possibility to get more or whether he's willing to explain why there is no more.) Anyway, is there anything you can suggest that I can be thinking about as I get ready to speak with him?

Sarah, Did you accidentally apply for the MA at UVA? I think there was something wrong with the application because I almost applied for the MA until I caught the error after submission. I am pretty careful with those things, so I am tempted to think there's something wrong with their routing. Oh well, if that's the case then this years admits should consider themselves fortunate to have had some candidates electronically routed out of direct competition.

The secretary at UVA told me that I'm not on the list over a month ago but I read here a bit later that the lists were not complete. I'm not holding out hope; I think they must have contacted admits by this point. They, like many places, are just dragging their feet with rejection letters. I got rejected from a philosophy program a few years ago (where I had done my undergrad... boo hoo) and they didn't send me a letter until June! By that time I knew it was over but I still wanted to get some official response for the investments that I had made--both the years or study and the $50 fee.

Your son gets chagrined? That's impressive. I can't even get my son to wipe his face.

He's got that Richard Dawkins gaze about him.

Well take heart in the fact that they told you you're good enough. I mean, that's huge. Imagine how you'd feel if they said you weren't good enough. It's happened to me plenty of times. I've never at any point had anyone tell me I was good enough. Everyone insists that I can't, that I won't, and that I shouldn't. My wife says she believes in me but all she has going for her is the fact that she loves me. If someone told you you were qualified and that you'll thrive, take that a clear confimation of your ability (nothing outside of an accptance could be clearer) and just send your application in next year. It's heartbreaking, but what can you do? If it were you then there'd be some other HDS quality person wondering whether he or she has what it takes. They only have so many slots so, while they tell everyone this, some qualified people just have to be left out.

Wow Ting, #1 on the waiting list. I had no idea we were in the presence of greatness all this time! Best of luck to you. I'm sure the top 3 must have good offers at other places as well. A spot is sure to open up.

Yes, I intend to pull the trigger... bite the bullet... those are both rather ballistic expressions. Anyway, I'm saying yes to Claremont. Claremont has always been my top choice, even if I had gotten into a program that some would consider more distinguished (which I haven't so far) I had intended on going to Claremont. It seems that, in talking to a few others already in the program, taking the 50% fellowship is standard. I'm looking at other funding options (my father has been very generous) but my wife insists that this is what I've wanted and so it's what we're doing. You only live once. If I don't make it in the academy or can't make enough to live I can go back to my previous work. At least I'll know I tried.

So what now? What do we do between now and the start of school? I absolutely can't wait to tell the people at work that I'm leaving the office to do my ph.d. I'm going to tell people that I'm studying dance. "Working here for the last ten years has been wonderful. I would be quite content to stay here if the urge to dance didn't gnaw at my soul like a starving rat in a burlap sack. Seeing you fine people every day has been a true joy but what I really want to do is dance!" Other than fantasizing about quiting, what should I do?

To philmajor and anyone else who may not gain acceptance this year, Please don't take this episode as a referrendum on your scholarly prospects. As may other posters have pointed out, judging any person's ability from things a 1-2 page statement and a ridiculous test involves wild guesswork. Everyone at our point has fairly strong grades and good recommendations; it's just hard to differentiate people. Some really stand out but most of us need good luck and good timing. And as Revolage made clear, if you know you're capable you can find excellent programs and individuals to work with at places with a less prestigious name. Great scholars come from all over the place, there's no need to try to fit a particular mold. So definitely try to cast your net wider. For me, getting shut out two years ago was a terribly humiliating experience. The only thing I've ever really had going for me is that I'm usually the smartest guy in the class--I can't dance, office work bores me to tears, and my chances of ever getting picked up in the NFL draft slips farther away each year. But I'm fairly good with ideas. It's been that way since I was a kid and most people here are probably in the same boat. There's no horn tooting going on here, it's just the way it is for most people who even consider doing doctoral work. But something very good came of it. My humiliation yeilded more humility and this is a hugely important character quality of any serious scholar. I expect to have many more humbling experiences in the near future, but now I'm glad to have them. I don't know if others will have or need an experience like that but a rejection can actually be a great opportunity to re-evaluate your priorities and goals if not a blessing in disguise. Don't let the passing guess of some overworked individual put an end to your dream. I personally have a hard time trusting people who have never really had a crushing failure. It so vitally important to being the best scholar, person, mother, father, or friend you can be. So accept it, internalize it, be thanful for it, and just keep going.

Great news, Tired! I'm glad you heard. My email did not say that it might go up, so perhaps they have you on the bubble. If so... congrats again.

Thanks NT Guy, Where else are you looking?

That doesn't make any sense about UVA unless they messed something up. I emailed them last month and Sarah told me that I was not on the list. So are they saying I might still make the list? Maybe it was just a particular area that's still deciding.

Yes, I did underestimate the cost a bit and I probably shouldn't be doing that. What I did was factor out the cost of rent since that is essentially covered by other means. I'm talking to a few other CGU students and grads. Pretty much everyone came in with a 50% fellowship and they're telling me it's standard. If the other attitudes are correct, I don't know why they're doing it. I guess they're as desperate and gullible as me. Regarding your issue, call them today. They have to be done with decisions by now. If they won't have decisions until after spring break then they should let you know. I'm almost certain they must be done by now. If you don't get an email today then, unfortunately, it's probably the worst. Still, if you're looking for full funding it sounds like CGU is not the place.

Bah, Thanks for taking the time to provide advice, I appreciate it. And don

Yes, I have gone through the application cycle before... and been spit out. I think that given my interests CGU is really the ideal program for me. There are a couple of faculty members there who really understand my interests and having a few in one place is like gold given that it seemed to me that they were few and far between when I was throwing out lines. I also happen to think its a very good program and can't imagine that I'd do much better. I am quite capable but I come from an evangelical background and, given that single kiss of death, only the outright geniuses have a chance of rising much higher. There is also a good chance that my housing will be free. So I figure I'll be saving a lot there. Plus my wife will work and I can work a bit too. So it will come down to about $30k for the first 2 years and then the price becomes rather minimal after that. That's no small amount but I had been paying on about that much debt from my undergrad for the last 10 years and it ends up being about $200 a month. I almost have that paid off. If I had to do that again, it's not a killer. It won't be easy since I'll be earning less than I do now, but a lot of people pay that much in credit card bills each month. I guess I could wait it out and insist on something better but in all likelihood, I'll never see it.

I had asked some time ago whether I should consider partial funding a tease. I am torn; if they offer it they must do it because it makes the program viable for people, or some people. I've been thinking about it and there's really no way I'm going to turn down CGU and try again. I'm either doing this or not doing anything... academically speaking. Is it stupid to go for it with only partial funding?

Philmajor, Revolage gave some good advice. I did, for the most part, many of the things he mentioned. I, however, took 2 years off because I took on a second MA in the mean time. I think that having an MA in both philosophy and theology really helped me get into Claremont because 1) I have proposed to do work that integrates analytic philosophy and Christian systematic theology and 2) Claremont has a pretty good niche there. So if there is any further academic work you can do that will bolster your portfolio at your target schools then you can consider that as well. I also contacted a lot of people; I mean a lot. I emailed at least one person at every school I was at least marginally interested in. I put together a 2 paragraph statement of my interests--try to make it really specific and concise. Show them that you know your topic but don't get verbose--and asked people who looked like they might work in that area whether they would supervise such a topic (or set of topics). If you are professional and intelligent (and I assume you are at this point) then there's almost nothing bad that can come of these emails. In the worst case you get ignored... no big deal. In the second worse case they say that they're not so interested in that topic but they'll probably suggest scholars at other places who would be a good match. That worked very well for me because I learned a lot about who was where and what they were doing. In other cases they are interested in your work and will want to talk about it. This also helped tremendously because I was able to rework my 2 paragraph statement. They gave me things to talk about and warned me where they thought my statement was too narrowly focused or simply didn't present well. So when I contacted scholars later my statement was even better. In the end I was able to turn that email in a nice personal statement that had been reviewed and commented on by a number of people. I only visited 2 schools--the only 2 schools I applied to--but I think that my approach helped me focus in on the only schools I was truly interested in. After I talked at length with people at Vanderbilt and Chicago I realized that they're really not for me even though they're great schools. I ended up getting into the only school that I thought was a perfect match and I think crafting my statement along the way and networking via email really helped. Lastly, find recent grads. They can be just as helpful as the responsive profs. They can give real insider information and they may be able to give you a good word. I ended up meeting with a few recent grads of a number of schools and all of them said that I could do just fine at their university (which was encouraging) and added that they'd send a note of support on my behalf. This really opened doors too.

Hi Tired, I would call the office. I called them last week and they only had decisions from Hebrew Bible at that time. I got an email from a prof yesterday and a different prof today. If I remember, I think you're applying for TEC; I'm in PRT. So TEC may still be deciding. I was told that both would be done around this week.