RichardHooker

Thanks for the link. Thanks also for everyone that's contributed to the thread and in messages. It's really helped me evaluate a lot of the different programs out there on their strengths and weaknesses. Part of the problem for me in choosing schools at the graduate level is my broad interests. Once you get to the graduate/professional school level, you're supposed to settle down and become an "expert" in some specific discipline or embark on a specific career path. This is reflected in the fact that most schools have awesome faculties for one philosophical or theological subject or school-of-thought, but might not even be on the radar in a majority of other fields. I have a general idea of where I want to go, but I haven't nailed it down yet. Where and in what exactly I ultimately get my doctorate (assuming I get that far) will depend a lot on how I evaluate my goals after seminary.

That article was what had me looking them up. I thought I had found pretty much what I was looking for when I found them, but I'm just not sure if they are worth the tuition that it appears I'd be paying over and against the vast majority of American programs I'm looking at right now. They might be worth it for a doctroral program, especially since there are more financial aid opportunities, but for an M.Div I'm less convinced.

Falwell still held to Perseverance (I think you have to believe in perseverance to teach religion at Liberty), but not any of the other 5 points. My upper-level theology professor was borderline Amyraldian. I must say, he is one of the fairest presenter of theological issues I've ever met, so you had to wait for him to end his lecture with his "this is just my opinion, but I think..." to figure out what he thought about an issue. I hadn't noticed that it was that much to apply to Wycliffe. I noticed it had pretty high tuition, is in Toronto, and I hadn't really run across it that much before, so it wasn't tops anyway. Right now I'm thinking I'm going to some place more conservative (TEDS, GCTS, Beeson, etc.) for my M.Div and then getting a Th.M or STM at Yale, Duke, or similar school before going for my doctorate. I think I might need that extra year of preparation anyway.

I'm not sure about overall in the theology department, but "Calvinistic" is a pretty liberal term at Liberty. If you believe in more of the "5 points" than just perseverance, and you emphasize them, then you are "Calvinistic." Furthermore, most of your classes in most religion majors (even more theology-based majors) are with the Bible department, and they are solidly Arminian with little exception. My statement was a bit of hyperbole, since Liberty isn't universally hostile to Calvinists, but our two main founders (the later Dr. Falwell and the recently retired Elmer Towns) were both converts from Calvinism to Arminianism, and they made it known they were opposed. I haven't really looked at TEDS until you mentioned it, and I'm not that interested in Calvin. However, it looks like TEDS is worth taking a look at since it has a built "Research Ministry" track where you write two "major research papers" (=thesis?). Right now, the other major programs I'm looking at are Duke, Beeson, and Gordon-Conwell. I've also run across the Toronto School of Theology with its seven constituent colleges, including an evangelical Anglican school (Wycliffe College), so if anybody has an opinion about it or its constituent colleges that would be great.

They are Arminian Baptist with a few Calvinistic profs, but none that are 5-pointers to my knowledge (I've heard a couple of Church History Prof might be). Whether they are Reformed or not depends on how you define the term, but I don't think many people that are Reformed would consider them to be. I'm using the term to mean 5-point Calvinists who are not Dispenationalist in theology.

Thanks for the insight. As I personally am generally "Reformed" in my theology, I don't really mind if they have a significant presence around. Considering I've learned mostly under non-Reformed folks, I would like to take at least a few classes under Reformed professors since my only exposure to the academic side of Reformed theology is through my personal reading and the bashing they receive from Liberty Profs. Part of my dilemma is not I'm not sure if I want to take the "Pastor-Scholar" route or if I want to focus more on the scholarly end of things, with ordained ministry as a secondary focus. Of course, that's a personal decision. If I take the Pastor-Scholar route, I would obviously lean toward picking something closer in doctrine and be more concerned about helping to train other Pastor-Scholars and lay people within my own tradition than contributing to the wider world of Christian scholarship. Taking a more scholarly approach, I'd need a broader education so I could interact on a scholarly level with people of other traditions, whether they be Christian or not. Right now I'm really appreciative of the fact that people here have said Oxford, Cambridge, and other UK colleges aren't out of reach, because it seemed as if they were to me. Those seem to have most of what I'm looking for in a program. I really like the multiple college and religious halls system in place at the British universities. You can go to a hall that shares your tradition while at the same time being exposed to other viewpoints, secular and religious, as part of the wider university. I'm not sure how well that works in practice, but it sounds great in theory.

I've only considered Liberty for an M.A. in Philosophy, and that's more because I just like the place and the people despite its rather obvious flaws. Even from my standpoint as an alumnus from there, I still think the academics are pretty poor quality, and I can't imagine doing seminary there really. In my undergrad religion program, we sometimes had textbooks that I thought were more appropriate for a Sunday School course than a university setting. I should note, however, that Liberty is in the process of reforming their curriculum to address these problems. This year they came out with a new religion curriculum that is a huge step in the right direction I think. For instance, the M.A. in Philosophy they have used to be a glorified Apologetics degree with only 3 courses in real philosophy, but they've added several real philosophy courses over this past summer. Still not great, but it does make me feel like I might contribute to the alumni foundation and not feel like I'm throwing my money away. I'm surprised to hear that the OT faculty at Gordon-Conwell is full of Meredith Kline clones. I thought that was limited to Westminster California and possibly Covenant. That's especially considering Meredith Kline was a Reformed scholar and GCTS is interdenominational. Also, I've always thought Westminster was supposed to have relatively good systematic & historical theology departments.

Thanks for the advice offered up so far. The reassuring points about GPA are especially helpful, since I had been quite worried about that particular point being a really limiting factor. Thanks for the anecdote. The main reasons I would go back are financial and personal. While those might be short-sighted, they can be pretty powerful motivators at a personal level. If I did that, I know that I would basically eliminate any future in the top-tier of academia. I'll weigh that in my final decision, but from what you and the others have told me about GPA and getting into well-regarded programs has definitely shifted things in favor of at least giving that further pursuit. The ultra-conservative schools you mention are irrelevant because I'm already prevented teaching religion at them. I actually couldn't even teach at my own alma mater for that same reason. Those schools tend to be Fundamentalist Baptists, and are pretty strict about Baptist theology that I do not share. Conservative schools within my theological tradition tend to value intellectual and theological rigor, which, whatever their faults, is offered at the top doctoral programs. Of course, "conservative" and "evangelical" are broad terms that encompass many different traditions that each have their own distinctives about what they consider orthodox.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not necessarily interested in how liberal or conservative a seminary or university is; I'm more concerned about diversity of opinion amongst the faculty on that matter. I'm adverse to going to a school that is uniformly liberal and doesn't take conservative evangelicals seriously. However, for an academic degree, ideally I'd be looking for conservative, liberal, post-liberal, etc. theologians and/or philosophers on the faculty. In other words, I don't want to hole up in a conservative echo chamber unless my only other options were to be the lone voice disturbing a liberal echo chamber. As for my GPA, I'm more concerned about it dragging down my post-M.Div doctoral apps than M.Div since I do know that isn't really much of a concern for that level except to cut off the lower end. I just want to keep my expectations and plans grounded in reality instead of pipe dreams of Oxbridge glory. Also, from my limited experience and what I've read online, most conservative seminaries prefer that doctoral-level work be at prestigious schools. There are so few conservative evangelicals who go to those types of programs that evangelical seminaries eat them up from what I've seen. However, they do also prefer M.Div-level work be at conservative seminaries. That's why right now I'm thinking an M.Div at a decent conservative seminary like Westminster and then looking at more well-regarded doctoral or other advanced programs at a more diverse institution is an ideal route.

Hello, I'm looking for some advice about some future graduate and doctoral-level programs in theology and/or philosophy. I'll list some points here to give some idea of my background and what I'm looking for in my theology program or philosophy of religion programs. It might be a long post, but I'd appreciate input from people knowledgeable on these subjects. I've had a lot of input coming from people from a future ministry angle, but not as much from an academic angle. I'm coming from a Conservative Anglican perspective (hence using the Anglican Divine as my username). I'm not necessarily looking for a program that is from that perspective, or even a conservative perspective necessarily. However, I would like a friendly and conducive environment for conservative and evangelical perspectives if possible. From what I've read Duke is a good choice for this, but I have concerns about my grades and my undergrad's reputation. I didn't go to undergrad well-regarded for its academic rigor (Liberty University if you must ask). To make matters worse, I was kind of lazy and graduated with a 3.44. My major was Biblical Studies, and I have taken most Greek that I would need. I've considered getting a second bachelor's in philosophy to show some better grades, but I don't really want to do that unless absolutely necessary. Also, I didn't cultivate much of a relationship with too many professors, though I'm sure I could muster up the needed recomendations, but only one or two would really be a good recommendation. I've considered going back to my undergrad for an MA in Philosophy since I could basically do it for free (GA position being a good bet there) with a guaranteed admit, but then I'd just have to somewhere else for a more academic M.Div and then try to get into a better Doctoral program from there. I've also considered studies (and even settling and working) abroad, naturally in the UK as an Anglican and general Anglophile. The obvious choices there are Oxbridge or St. Andrews, but grades once again enter that picture. Since second bachelor's are more common in the UK from my understanding from English relatives and online sources, I'd be more likely to try to get a second degree in some related subject there, and make sure to stick-to-it and get better marks and open up more opportunities at more reputable programs. I want to be in the academic community, but my main priority is serving the Church, not necessarily being an ivory tower theologian who writes a lot of journal articles about mundane issues. Don't get me wrong here: I'm fascinated by a lot of those topics, I just don't see that being my primary concern. I'll probably try to end up teaching at a conservative seminary or university, but I do want to keep my options open. Feel free to put in further input, but here are some of the schools I've looked at for different programs: Westminster Theological Seminary, Reformed Theological Seminary, Trinity School for Ministry, Nashotah House Theological Seminary, Princeton Theological Seminary, and Duke Divinity. My main concern is overcoming that relatively poor undergrad GPA compared to some and lack of relationship cultivation, which is the primary reason I'm even considering going back to my alma mater for an MA.