MApplicant

Sure thing, I'll pass this information on to Leiter and Schwitzgebel. First, I want to do some more digging though so I can have a more complete dataset. 30/51 isn't bad and it may not get much better with such little information out there about some of those students, but I'd like to get it as complete as I can.

Unfortunately, I don't. Three out of five MA applicants (whose undergrad backgrounds I could find) admitted to Notre Dame were from religious schools though.

Congrats! I think you're an exception to Ianfaircloud's claim, but not to mine if you're applying straight from your BA without an MA.

Well, I only meant to state that I've found pretty discouraging evidence for a glass ceiling for applicants with MAs. As I said above, I've noticed a lot of students from lesser known/prestigious schools at top-20 PhD programs, but they're the ones who made it straight through from their BAs.

That is not one of the programs I looked at. For what it's worth, there were four MA placements at Arizona from the schools I looked at, but I was unable to find information about their undergrad institutions (nothing on the department website, MA programs with little information to identify them by, etc.) It's possible Arizona's exceptional in the way Notre Dame's exceptional, but I will make note of this and continue to search for information. I'm not sure what the success rate is of people simply taking a year off and applying again with a refined writing sample (I also don't know how I'd come to know that), but I agree with you Ian. My MA experience was invaluable, improved my application, and got me into programs I'm happier to attend - even if not top-20 programs (I suppose I'm still waiting to hear from all of them).

That's awesome to hear MattDest! I'd be happy share details via PM. I'm especially curious if you went to one of the (funded) programs I looked at. Ianfaircloud, that's one way of stating it. I didn't mean to imply that applicants with unspectacular undergraduate records (or even spectacular undergraduate records at anything but a very prestigious American program) can't be helped much. Just that getting into a top-20 PhD program seems to be remarkably difficult for anyone with such a background when they come from an MA program. (Casually perusing top-20 program websites, you'll often come across someone from an undergraduate institution that isn't especially prestigious, but they got into the PhD program straightaway without an MA)

Hey everyone! I was greatly disturbed by the Leiter post a few weeks back with comments from an admissions committee member at a top-20 PhD program for all the reasons people here and on Leiter’s blog made clear. That post, however, prompted me to investigate a nagging suspicion I’ve had about PhD admissions for applicants with MAs: only applicants who attended either a prestigious, well-known undergrad institution and/or an institution with a graduate program in philosophy prior to their MA are admitted to top-20 PhD programs in philosophy. I looked through placement records of five highly regarded (Leiter recommended) funded MA programs and dug into the backgrounds of those who were admitted to top-20 programs since 2008. Ideally, I’d go back further than 2008, but around that time it gets more difficult to trace students’ histories out – over the course of six years some students have dropped out while others have completed the program, and for those that haven’t, internet records were spottier, personal details on the department website and personal websites were less common, etc. What I found was disheartening. Indeed, almost every student attending a top-20 PhD program who received an MA from a highly regarded, funded terminal program did their undergrad at a prestigious institution and/or one with a philosophy grad program. I did find a few exceptions, but every exception was either an international student or else the top-20 program that admitted them was Notre Dame. Of course, I do need to qualify this somewhat. I was only able to trace out (or draw from personal familiarity with) 30/51 MA program placements into top-20 PhD programs. It’s entirely possible that some MA students without this sort of undergrad background got into top-20 PhD programs. The fact that every single one of the thirty (apart from the Notre Dame admits) came from (1) a well-recognized, prestigious undergrad institution, (2) an institution with a philosophy graduate program, and/or (3) a non-American institution, leaves me skeptical that there are many exceptions. This is also not to say that there won’t be exceptions in the future – perhaps even to the point where it wouldn’t be appropriate to call them exceptions. After all, MA programs have been pumping out solid students for years now and are earning greater respect in the philosophical community. I sincerely hope that MA applicants from different backgrounds (i.e. not (1), (2), or (3)) can gain admission to top-20 PhD programs in the future, but the evidence I’ve uncovered to this point suggests that they have not in the past (and if they have, they’ve been remarkably rare). I bring this up because at this time every year, rejections start rolling in and applicants begin considering MA programs. I think that they’re well worth consideration. I, myself, attended a Leiter lauded MA program and have nothing but positive things to say about my experience. I met a ton of great people, learned so much, and had a blast. I think my time was well spent, but I had expectations going into the program that were not informed by this sort of data. If my expectations were informed by this data, I would’ve reconsidered my choice of attending an MA program instead of a decent, funded PhD offer. That’s not to say that students from less prestigious backgrounds can’t improve their applications (but most importantly, their philosophical skills) and get into better PhD programs post-MA. I’ve seen that happen with over a dozen people and I would now count myself among them, but it’s also important to have realistic expectations. Developing expectations about MA programs should be greatly informed by their placement records, but it’s also important to ask what students who got the placements you might want had in common. Strong philosophical skills, stellar writing samples, and great letters of recommendation to be sure, but that may not be all, sadly.