coaks

Yeah, good call, if they're on there. Also, you can go to http://wagner.nyu.edu/cgi-bin/evaluation03NEWe.cgi and use your NYU ID and password to see the course ratings for most if not all courses over the past few years. If the teacher hasn't taught that core class recently, however, I suppose it would be less useful.

Well, the first thing I'd say you could do is to check out the hard stats for those programs. They should have a range of UGPA/GRE scores that they accepted in the previous year's class. That would give you a good sense of where you stand right off the bat. If you're above average for both UGPA and GRE, you're 100% competitive and stand a good shot to get in with average WE, recommendations and SOPs. If not, it's all about balancing out any weak spots in your application. If your UGPA is below average, you can take courses at a community college to show that you can get As at the high UG or low Grad level. If your GRE is low, you can try to take it a second time before the end of the year. If you don't think you can find good recommendations or if your WE doesn't show your commitment to ID, you can start volunteering this year and get a good rec from whichever organization you join outside of the office. There are myriad ways to raise your profile for grad school; it's all about coming up with a complete picture of you the applicant and show why, despite any blemishes, you're a great fit for the school. Just out of curiosity, have you considered business schools for what you're looking to do? Many of the top MBA programs have great faculty for ID/Econ and lots of connections to get you started with philanthropic or profit-motivated organizations.

Yeah, I completely agree with everyone else here. It's the same thing for people who choose to do MBA at night or part-time and continue in their current role, company and field versus those that choose to do it full-time and try to switch some combination of location, department or industry. The big name programs can be recruiting machines but if that's not one of your needs, the name on your degree means a lot less IMO.

I actually think this isn't true for the majority of programs although I do recall UMD specifically being an exception. Both myself and fadeindreams got into multiple top programs with a sub 3.0 GPA and there have been plenty of other posters that did the same. I'm not sure how UMD treats applications that ignore their arbitrary (and absurd) 3.0 cutoff. (I recall the business school had a mandatory 3.0 for applications but perhaps the governmental affairs program is different?) If it's one of your dream programs, I'd say call the adcom's office and ask to speak to someone about it. Make your arguments, mention how the vast majority of other top programs have no obligatory GPA requirement (only suggested stats) and how you think you're a good candidate for UMD's program despite your difficulties during your first couple of years of undergrad. Ask them specifically if they've admitted anyone with less than a 3.0 GPA over the previous few years. They might be able to give you some good information about what they're looking for. I'm sure you can get into a great program with your undergraduate stats. It's just an issue of applying to a wide enough range of schools, finding a good fit and, perhaps, getting a little lucky along the way.

I don't know why everyone keeps placing negatives on this post.I hope it's not purely because HKS ends up on the bottom of his/her list. nairus, I think this is an interesting way of looking at grad school choice. Looking back on my own application decisions, sometimes I wish I had taken a little bit more of an objective view of my potential schools and I think this is a pretty good way of doing it. I'm sure it would have yielded some thought-provoking results for me. I hope more applicants follow your example with their own personal decision. Best of luck when you do apply!

Congrats! Best of luck in the fall at Heinz!

Have you been accepted to those three programs and you're trying to decide where to matriculate? Or are you deciding where to apply? Where to visit before you apply? Why those three in particular and not others? If you're just targeting schools, why not plan to apply to all three and some others? You can worry about your best fit after you've gotten all your acceptances. That said, the stereotypes of Wagner and Korbel are essentially what you described, with the stereotypical focus at Wagner being city-state public/non-profit, and the stereotypical focus at Korbel being more national/international. Columbia also is stereotypically seen as more national/international but with slightly more quant, especially on the finance side. But those are just the stereotypes. You can get pretty much whatever you want out of any MPP/MPA program at any top school. Definitely visit and sit in on classes if you can afford to and absolutely try to get as much info as you can before you apply. It'll help with the SOPs.

It wasn't my primary interest when I was applying so unfortunately I can't be as helpful as I'd like to be, but check out the program at NYU Wagner to see if it sounds like something that would be a good fit. Also, people say Maxwell and UGA are real good general MPAs. You also can't go wrong with something from WWS/HKS/etc.

Hey I have no intention of starting an argument Octavia. I just hate to see people outright ridiculed online. It disappointed me to see someone picked apart. That all said, nothing you wrote changes my opinion in the slightest. Princeton makes it clear that their faculty will use best judgement in determining whether candidates are suited for the quantitative rigor. They also assure candidates that they will be given every opportunity to succeed: "Faculty evaluate the applicant's preparation for courses in economic and quantitative analysis. There is no prescribed undergraduate major for the M.P.P. degree, but familiarity with social science disciplines makes the learning curve less steep at the outset. A six-week summer program beginning in July is required for all M.P.P. students which prepares students for the pace of the curriculum. " (http://wws.princeton...p-requirements/) I couldn't find any micro/macro requirement for Georgetown's MPP program. All I see is the following making it clear that there is no required prior coursework: "While the GPPI does not require prior quantitative training, the program's core curriculum is rigorous in nature and completion of prior course work in pre-calculus or calculus, microeconomics, and statistics is strongly recommended. " (http://gppi.georgeto...ions/12492.html) Columbia states that most successful candidates have prior quant coursework but they make it clear that prior quant is not required. Note that they say most, not all, successful candidates. I'm not arguing that acing stats/micro/macro/calc doesn't boost your application but I just don't buy the idea that these schools would reject an otherwise incredibly compelling candidate out-of-hand simply because he/she lacked these courses. Is Bubal the otherwise incredibly compelling candidate? It might not appear that way but you or I don't know that and we shouldn't pass judgement. Finally, that syllabus at WWS assumes no knowledge of finance, economics or calculus, states that PhD candidates would probably prefer a more quantitatively rigorous course and mentions that it's modeled after a first year MBA course, many of which are noted for their lack of academic rigor when compared to other graduate-level courses. Look Bubal can read these threads. He/she can see what hard stats we have. He/she can see class profiles for some of the schools online and read what they suggest. But if after all that, he/she wants to throw in a few more apps this year and see what happens, he/she should go for it. I wish both you and Bubal the best of luck in your applications.

I don't buy the travelling and volunteer work not being experience for MPP. It shows passion and is easily marketable in the SOP. The OP says his/her SOP and recs were strong so I think it's way too harsh to say he/she has no strengths whatsoever. I also don't believe an MPP candidate needs to have an understanding of micro/macro/calc before starting. Most schools recommend them and some might make calculus specifically a condition of acceptance but you can always take that after finding out. They teach it to you as part of their core for a reason. If you already know it, why would you take it? I do agree that boosting the GRE and maybe more work experience could help but if MPP/MPA is what you want now, Bubal, you should go for it. You'll never know what's possible until you try. You applied to the three top Chicago schools -- are you located there? DePaul, UIC and IIT all offer public affairs degrees and seem to cast wider nets than the other three. There are obviously other programs in DC including George Mason. Baruch and the other CUNYs are good options in NY.

simplethings, you'll see people on these message boards run the gamut on their position vis a vis taking out large amounts of debt for grad school. It completely depends on your specific situation and the expected return on your investment for you individually. Since I know you're about to make a crucial life decision, I just wanted you to know that I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from flyers29 and will be taking out more than $100K in loans for school.

I had a W, an Incomplete that I never completed, a straight-up D+ and several Cs. I was accepted at Michigan, NYU and Carnegie Mellon and waitlisted at Duke. I was rejected at Berkeley and Chicago.

I agree with the potential of the public shaming route but only if you can get the attention of someone that works for the school's newspaper or a regional/national daily to write about it. Or if you write a letter to the editor to get it published. Seriously, if you post the name of the school here, it won't do any good. Applicants will still apply next year; the rest of us applicants and admitted students will forget it ever happened in no time flat. But it is definitely a BIG deal that needs to be addressed internally at the school. Yelling/screaming on a phone call would be a much better way to effect change in this situation (IMO) than posting the name of the school here. However, obviously, a nice piece about adcom incompetence or an op-ed from you in the Lackadaisical University Daily would be even better.

Yes, absolutely call the admissions office and ask to speak to the Dean of Admissions or of the school itself. When you do, let them know that sort of thing is completely unacceptable for a program of their stature and you hope they closely examine the mistakes that were made to cause the error and prevent it from happening in the future. Really vent at the dean, if that'll help. It'll mostly be for your own benefit to get some of that negative energy out. Obviously if you have any intention of applying to that specific program again, I would be more diplomatic. But either way, you should contact whoever is in charge of the program and let your feelings be known.

ropeladder, interesting take. I made a somewhat similar decision recently in regards to Ford/Heinz but it was driven as much by other factors as by what you just mentioned. Where'd you end up choosing to matriculate this fall?

My only sentiments besides wishing you the best of luck when making your decision is that I'd like to note your debt load at Ford would still be extremely affordable on a 10 year timeline.

Cali124, very sorry I didn't get back sooner with more info! I hope that you have time to make your decision. I'll check my notes (I took a lot of them with the intention of sharing) later tonight but until then, here's what I have: I personally attended both the Wagner admit day and Ford's admit day in Michigan and while I was impressed by the students/faculty/staff at both, those at Wagner were much more dynamic. Seeing both groups basically flipped me entirely. I had been assuming I would attend Ford but changed my mind last weekend to Wagner and sent in my deposit mid-week. Talking to some current students, the Wagner community's diversity of backgrounds/goals seemed to be one of the big factors in making their decision. The students attending the admit day at Wagner seemed to not only come from a wider array of backgrounds and experiences they also had a more interesting set of goals. From the guy that had been a firefighter for the past five years and wanted to change the way the FDNY operated top to bottom to the many that were looking to expand the non-profits that they helped out (or started) to the few that had been doing CBA for government agencies down in DC and wanted to round themselves out, they all seemed like they could offer a ton in a classroom setting. Also, we met a few different faculty members. I personally was excited to see a balance of backgrounds -- there were many Wagner faculty members with PhDs from top academic programs (Berkeley Econ, Harvard Political Economy) but also a number with PhD's from top business schools (like Stanford GSB, MIT Sloan). The coursework, if you want it to be, can be a great balance. After speaking to a few of the professors, I wasn't concerned about being able to pursue a more analytically/statistically rigorous course of study. They said the options were there formally as well as informally (additional reading/research assignments could be arranged for those that wanted to be more quantitatively heavy). In terms of networking, etc. it seemed very strong, especially in the non-profit/public world of NY. Before I went to admit day, I had the perception that NYU Wagner admits work only in NYC public positions, which seems to not necessarily be the case. The large number that stay in the NY area seem to stay in large part because they want to stay close to NY. NYC has the largest concentration of non-profits of anywhere in the world and many current students noted this was a huge plus in terms of networking/interning while in school and over the summer. While it's always hard to compare hard numbers between programs, the network does extend into other parts of the country as well as the federal government and the private consulting world. Obviously getting an MPA from Wagner isn't the same as getting a degree from HKS, but the opportunities are there -- especially in a place like NYC where you can find anything you're looking for right there (unless you're specifically pursuing something federal, in which case the Washington DC chapter of the Wagner alumni network was called out as being quite active). I believe your question about working during the time at school was raised from a little different angle. There are TA positions but the career staff seemed to want to encourage students to pursue paid internships with organizations outside the school to build their network. In fact, at one point, a student who will go PT asked if that would put her at a disadvantage, and the staff member fielding the question said it would put her at an unqualified advantage. He also said, "if I had my druthers, all students would be working" at least a few hours a week to put the concepts and technique to use in the real world. There wasn't much discussed about funding in the second year, other than it's available for top performing students but, again, if you can pursue and obtain a paid internship position a day or two a week, that's encouraged. The alumni panel was asked about their loans. They were pretty honest, saying that the loan payments are definitely a non-trivial amount, encouraging future students to be prudent if possible (live in the outer boroughs rather than the village). But none of them were having problems paying back their loans (one student even had to do it all on loans and didn't claim it was a big issue for him at the moment -- he had just bought a house and he was paying the student loans and the mortgage payment with no real difficulty). Hopefully grad2 can answer your questions about international stuff because I didn't ask them after s/he offered to share some info. What I do know is that Wagner facilitates summer study courses between the first and second year in Africa, Europe, Asia and/or South/Central America depending on the year (usually a couple of weeks in June-July). They also arrange for students attending these classes to get an internship with an international NGO in that country for the duration of the summer, rather than having to interrupt their domestic internship to travel abroad. Hope this helped!

I'll be at the Wagner open house tomorrow. I'll be wearing a grey houndstooth button down (I think -- I'll let you know if my wardrobe plans change ), come up and say hey.

That's absurd. I'm sorry to hear that. I'm a lot less excited about the program knowing that they can't even keep track of packages they receive in their office. That's very disappointing.

Also, fadeindreams, can you be my life counselor? Great advice, seriously.

Agreed, plus from what you actually wrote, "upon graduation" sounds like "at the time that they actually graduated" and I would not at all be surprised to see 50-60 percent figures at a lot of the top programs. Then that number seems pretty average to me, honestly. I definitely didn't have a job "upon graduation" from my undergrad -- it took me a few months to grab it. And I expect it will take a lot of us a couple months (or more) to find our first post-masters job as well.

No one that uses the word gauche with a straight face could ever be said to be gauche, in my opinion. But seriously, that's a very long time. I'd recommend calling the office to ask about it again. I had to do that for Harris; they forgot to send me my decision (or sent it to the wrong e-mail address). Chicago might be able to manage multivariate calculus but apparently they haven't mastered e-mail yet.

I haven't heard of one but I'd be very curious. We could try to start a google document here if enough people were interested in sharing. Unfortunately, I don't think it would be as useful as law school or medical school. MPP programs, it seems, are a lot less selective (with maybe a handful of exceptions) than law and business schools. They also seem to rely on the statement of purpose, work/extracurricular experiences and recommendations a lot more heavily. That is, for any of the top 20 or whatever law schools, or similar number of med schools I imagine you'd be able to define the "bar" (shown on that chart as the diagonal line of yellow dots) where you suddenly go from a highly likely admit to a virtually impossible to admit. For MPP (and MBA programs also), I'd be surprised if that bar was as clear cut. But maybe it is. I suppose that's why we collect data.

Cool. So it's definitely just the standard internship requirement for other schools but Wagner wants to be sure it's with an organization that helps you do what you said you want to do. Thanks cali124! And I will let you know anything interesting that happens on admit day. If you have any specific questions that you want me to ask for you, let me know. I will even see if I can record the audio of any sessions with faculty for you (something Ford school does for students that can't make it). No promises though since my sound quality on my phone isn't always the best.

Yep but before you do, give the admissions team a call. Most of the offices that I've spoken to are very open to offering extensions if you need it.