Saturnalia
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Posts posted by Saturnalia
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17 hours ago, MD guy said:
Why are you in SAIS then? If you want to do big arbitration work, the answer is to be an attorney...I'm not sure I see the value that SAIS would really give you. But then again I don't know too much about SAIS in particular. Just doesn't seem like MPP-type gives the right sorts of skills.
A fair number of attorneys here have done dual degrees, and its made it much easier for them to transfer over to the policy realm as their interests change, or they want a less demanding career, etc. A lot of the lawyers in the practice group here will come from or go to the state department, or in some cases, the Hague, World Bank/ICSID, WTO, etc. The vast majority of the cases we do are heavily intertwined with both the international legal system and state-entities and multilateral organizations like the World Bank and WTO, and a dual degree would give me more flexibility to cross between the two. I wouldn't pursue the dual-degree at all unless I got into a high enough ranked program that would allow me to work on cases at that high of a level.
14 hours ago, kb6 said:For the first semester, I personally would not recommend doing anything approaching full-time work. Even if your job's hours are reduced, if the duties are taxing/time-consuming it's gonna be tough. I worked part-time for all of SAIS (including first semester), but they were the kinds of student-y jobs where you could sit there and do your homework during down times, and where you could ask for a week off around midterms. One semester I did about 25hrs/week combined internship and job and it was hell (this was second year). But if you have the kind of job where you might have a free two hours in the afternoon to do some readings...or even space out and relax...that's a different ballgame.
Also, people tend to take their quant courses early to use as pre-reqs for more interesting courses. If you were an undergrad econ major then perhaps this will be no big whoop, but many (myself included) found them challenging and will want to have the time to do study groups, go to office hours/TA sessions, etc.
Also, I will echo the "why JD/MAIR combo" comments. It would be one thing if you have money to burn and just wanted the education, but if this involves loans I would say give up the IR degree if what you want is to become a lawyer, and take a few IR-focused electives. Or vice versa. I don't know anyone who did the combined JD (there were a number of joint MBAs/MPHs though), but I would recommend talking to someone who did that combo to get a sense of their experiences.
In terms of debt - my total is around where you'd be without the undergrad loans, but I still find it a little burdensome. Not in an existential "why did I make all the decisions that have led me to this point" kind of way, but enough that I think about it a fair amount (as is evidenced by the fact that I'm commenting on gradcafe a year after graduation!). It makes what were once considered basic features of middle class+ adulthood - being able to afford a studio, saving up for a downpayment, saving up for a *real* vacation - a bit more challenging. I also have no faith whatsoever in any of the income-based repayment programs and am not participating, so whatever your attitude is towards those could make a difference.
I more or less suspected that would be the consensus on working while in school, even with a reduced course load. I guess I'll have to follow up with my boss. When hearings aren't happening, I'll often have 3 or more hours a day with nothing to do. If we have hearings scheduled it'll be pretty non-stop, but if we have nothing big coming up through year end, I'll potentially give it a shot.
I studied physics in undergrad, so I'm pretty confident in my quant/math skills. I've only taken basic econ courses, but we'll see how I fare in macro during SAIS's summer session, I guess.
In terms of the undergrad loans though, they're due to be paid off in full 3 years after I'd graduate SAIS, and I'm young, so I'm not as worried about the undergrad balance, especially given the fact that they're all subsidized and at a very low interest rate, but it's good to get additional insight on what life would look like with that kind of debt burden.
As a sidenote, how does SAIS handle second year funding?
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On 5/28/2016 at 1:14 AM, MD guy said:
Ditch the JD. Why do you want it? See the other thread in the forum about why the JD is a bad fit for most people interested in policy. The JD would bring your very manageable debt load and balloon it to ridiculousness, forcing you to explore the private biglaw sector, which most MPP-oriented people would not like.
I would also not advocate working part-time the first semester. There's a transition time wherever you go, and you want to make friends the first semester anyway. Starting with the spring you'll have a much better idea how well you can handle things. But obviously deferring to the SAIS ppl here
I'm considering the JD because I'm interested in International Arbitration. I currently work at a top-10 law firm and am not opposed to working in big law.
As for working part-time, I would be on both a reduced course load and a reduced work schedule, so I am curious to see whether it's something I'd be able to manage. I'm working and taking a course right now, for instance, and find it to be completely manageable, though I'm hesitant to see what adding two more on top of it would do to things.
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18 hours ago, kb6 said:
I, too, am interested in where the OP attended grad school. As I've mentioned in other threads, I graduated from SAIS a year ago and the vast majority of my friends have full-time jobs in-field. They're not all perfect matches, but they're reasonable fits that will hopefully serve as stepping stones to something better. Some non-US citizen friends have struggled to find employers willing to sponsor them for visas, but most people in that category have gone into multi-laterals (with the World Bank being the top destination by far) or found jobs back home.
What I will say is that I agree with the sentiment about debt. Even my friends with great jobs are struggling massively if they took the whole thing out in loans. Adulthood is basically deferred until they find a significant other who can bankroll them, or until they miraculously become a superstar like SAIS alum Wolf Blitzer -- definitely not the likely career outcome for most IR grads, and besides, I doubt Wolfie took out 140k in loans to get his degree back in the day.
And the other disheartening aspect of taking out mega loans is that a good chunk of students at elite grad schools will have mommy and daddy footing the whole bill, and so you will have to watch as they merrily accept the sub-50k/year development job while living on their own in a luxury building near 14th and U. Meanwhile you're on the bus from your group house in Petworth, vowing to spend less money next month at the local watering whole where you go drown your sorrows with your other friends who complain about loans.
Yikes. That is bleak. So I'm actually a matriculating SAIS student, and I'll probably need to take out around 50-55k total for SAIS, but I also have about 15k in undergrad subsidized stafford loans. Obviously that's a lot less than 140k, but would you say that's a reasonable amount of debt? Or would that also be insane? I'm playing with the idea of a dual-degree (JD), and if I went that route, all these debt calculations would fly out the window, but I figured it doesn't hurt to ask.
Piggy-backing on that, I'm taking a couple courses at SAIS over the summer and would be able to take a reduced course-load in the fall (admissions has told me that as long as I take 3 courses, I can retain my full-time status). My job isn't too demanding and would allow me flex hours. Given SAIS's workload, would working and studying be feasible for the fall semester? Does anyone do this or would it be hell?
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Okay, so I currently work at a top 10 law firm as a paralegal, and I'm also considering a dual degree and I can hopefully give you some insight. First and foremost, I highly recommend NOT signing up for a JD unless you know what you are getting into and you know it's what you want. I've spent 3 years here because I took that long in weighing my options between law school and an MA. It's not a decision to make on a whim. I've seen so many of my friends end up miserable because they didn't think it through carefully. In that same vein, getting a dual degree is really inadvisable unless you have a very clear idea what you would use it for.
But on the subject of dual degrees - you say it's not an option for you because the schools offered by your program are weak programs. What about an ad hoc? For example, SAIS has official partnerships with Stanford and UVA, but they've also assured me that doing an ad hoc is possible, if the other school agrees, and a number of institutions in the top 14 have confirmed for me that they allow ad hocs (though I have no idea if this policy varies by school, etc).
Jumping back to law- the general consensus here that a JD locks you in to a certain kind of career does have a lot of truth to it. It's a profession, so that shouldn't be too, too surprising. I do think having a dual degree could help overcome that a bit, but if doing international human rights law is the only way you'd be happy as a lawyer, it's a risky proposition. Could you be happy working in big law? If you go to law school and have loans, you will have to work in big law, assuming you go to a prestigious enough program to get into a big law firm (genuinely not trying to be condescending- when I asked my firm's recruiter about her thoughts on the JD, her response was 'we have a list of 15 schools we recruit from and throw the rest in the trash unless you know someone'). I see a lot of associates work here for three years and then bail, because they're putting in their sweat equity to pay off the loans.
That's not to say that there aren't really interesting aspects of big law. I work in the International Arbitration group, and I love it. It's amazing. Even if it's not what I'd want to do forever, I could see myself being happy with it. And even if the big law hours here are grueling, I absolutely love the type of person that's drawn to this field, and really enjoy working with them. So a dual degree is something I'm considering closely. If big law is a job you think you will hate: run. Literally last November a dude in DC jumped off the roof of his law firm's building. If you do not like the people or the work, it will be hell. All this being said, you are just out of undergrad, and it seems like you're really over-planning things right now (why are you already stressing about supporting a family?). What you're interested in is pretty likely to change. I only graduated 3 years ago, and my interests have strayed from where they were originally.
(Also, on the subject of admission 'hooks': your admission to law school is 90% LSAT and undergrad GPA - LSAC does NOT factor in graduate GPA - and from what I've seen, soft factors aren't really useful unless they're tied in some way to the legal field).
Don't take on debt
in Government Affairs Forum
Posted
Not to stray too far from the initial thread's topic, but the head of the IA group actually cautioned me against this, because she feels getting a JD locks you into a certain profession, and for associates under her that have looked to move away from big law, it has been more difficult and taken more steps/jobs to move over to where they ultimately wanted to end up. Granted, more difficult doesn't at all mean impossible, just that they faced more hurdles in transitioning to policy roles versus legal roles in policy focused organizations. Ultimately, I don't think a JD necessarily prepares you for IR, just as an MA wouldn't prepare you for things in the legal profession, and it wouldn't be advisable to pursue a JD if one's main interest going into it are solely things of an international scope. International Arbitration is a very niche field even within the legal profession, and can be difficult to break into, which is why people will sometimes pursue an MA, or more admittedly more commonly, an LLM either during, or after completion of the JD.
But to return to the thread's original topic of debt, were I to attend a T14 law school, that would completely change my debt tolerance regardless, because my expected salary post graduation would change.