barbou

If you were talking about the relative prestige of two programs where you had similar offers in terms of funding, etc, I wouldn’t be any help. But I feel qualified to say that no prestige is worth taking out loans, esp since you have the chance to do it funded! Hoping to become a professor - think about how tight and low-paying the academic job market is - if you have these payments hanging over you, now you’re dealing with questions like "can I afford to take this or that job and make my loan payments?" What if you find a job in a high cost of living area - now you’re dealing with the calculus of COL plus loan payment; maybe you have to live far away from campus because you can’t swing a decent place near campus along with loan payments, and you’re either spending a ton of time commuting or now maybe you need a car which could negate the cost savings of living farther away…and with all the stress of cobbling things together to make ends meet, how much energy will you have left for your own writing? Everything gets that much harder, on a career path that is already fairly challenging. [sorry if this is all a given and didn’t need spelling out in detail - it’s just, as someone who recently finished paying off loans from the first time I went to grad school, I think we all know generally that having to pay loans will suck, but until you’ve lived it it’s hard to truly grasp what it’s like to have to factor that payment so heavily into your life for so long, both when you’re starting out but also eight years down the road when you’re making more money, but now you have - just as a for instance - a kid in daycare and another kid who wants to take gymnastics, and you also need a bigger place to house them, but Ope you’re still paying that loan…] Anyway, I’ve not yet started my program and I’m planning to pay myself (no loans!!) for a low-res one, so maybe what do I know, but my stepdad has taught for decades at a well regarded and fully funded writing program, so I’ve heard a lot about the hiring decisions - the strength of your publications is what will open doors. You may get a little "ooh they went to X School?" boost, but it’s lower on the list of what makes you attractive. Also, some people will be impressed by it, and some won’t care (and who knows, a big name school can work against - will some people assume you’re elitist because you went there?) so it’s really unquantifiable - whereas taking a loan effectively ties a cinder block (of a size you can quantify) around your ankle once you graduate…IMO the gamble of "will the school name counteract the cinder block" is too risky. I guess this depends somewhat on how much you’d need to take out to cover living expenses…maybe it won’t be as horrible to pay back as my loans were. Then again, my first career was also more lucrative and stable than academia. I’d still be cautious though - another hard to quantify question is, how much will the thought of relying on loans stress you while in the program? Like, if you’re holding yourself to a shoestring budget to take out as small a loan as possible, does the stress of watching the $, thinking about whether you’ll take out the same amount next year or will you need more, etc, hamper your creativity? What if a lack of financial stress gives you the mental space to do your best possible work? Anyway I’ll stop now, I’m kind of like a demon who is summoned anytime someone is pondering whether student loans are "worth it" - on paper, mine actually were worth it, but paying them back still made me feel stifled and resentful - just saying, even if the prestige delivers, you may still wish you’d done it differently.

I can't speak to the whole fully funded program of it all, as I'm an older person with a life I can't uproot, who only applied to low-res programs, but I can speak for just...life in general, as someone who went to grad school the first time for a STEM field and now 15 years later, writing - life is long, and if you keep writing and improving, there will be other opportunities. No need to Sunk Cost Fallacy your way into a program that's giving you iffy vibes.

Sent you a super long DM but figured I'll try to post a more succinct thing here since I think others are curious too... After sitting with my thoughts a bit more, I'm realizing that part of my issue with deciding is that anyone I talk to who loved their program and is super passionate about it has the power to change my mind and make me think that sounds like the best program ever. Like, one of the things I was wowed by when talking to the Bennington grad was a particular instructor they worked with who was amazing, and "changed my writing more than anyone ever has"...so here's me thinking, "omg, I want an amazing instructor who will change my writing more than anyone ever has!!" ...but I'm sure someone from Warren Wilson could say the exact same thing about mentors they loved! So, I still think WW is the one for me, partly due to their reputation for being the most rigorous and craft focused program (which I think isn't just reputation and is reflected in the handbook and semester plans), but the things that turned my head about Bennington were: - They give students more info about the business aspects of writing (via their professional development seminars) whereas the WW grad I spoke to said there's almost no discussion of that aspect. It seems like this may translate to Bennington grads being better poised to query agents and publish (and as far as alumni publications, if you look at WW's list it seems very impressive, but it includes all time. If you pull that list and run it through a script to limit to just the past 10 years, it shrinks more than you may expect, and Bennington starts to look more impressive I think). That said, I think I'm going to put my faith in the craft focus and hope that's the best investment of my time - come out having improved as much as I possibly can, and hopefully have reason to learn about the business of publishing later. - Cleaner and more well maintained living quarters, much better food...as I mentioned in my longer message, that shouldn't necessarily be so important, but I have heard multiple people refer to the WW housing as "icky," "gross," or "run down," most likely related to the fact that undergrads doing their required time on a work crew are the ones responsible for cleaning and maintenance, SO I thought I'd mention it for everyone's awareness! [lol, this is me being succinct...maybe Warren Wilson can help me learn parsimony].

A few days away from the Bennington deadline, how're we doing? I was leaning WW, especially after reading through their handbook (the way it's structured sounds so intentional and organized, and a bit intimidating as it sounds very serious and rigorous - but I think that would also be good for me) but I just had a great call with a Bennington grad and a lot of what she said about the best parts of the program really spoke to me, so I continue to be kind of torn lol.

I feel like this could be the same person - https://www.reddit.com/r/MFAInCreativeWriting/comments/1rn8op6/i_got_into_a_great_mfa_writing_program_and_im_not/ Same rancid vibes and IMO scattershot approach to trolling (is justverde here just for the sake of his sympathetic and very real mentee? Or is he the one applying? Are all MFA programs bullshit, or did he just get in to one of the best ones?)

"I'm stubborn and lacking a fully developed pre-frontal cortex." - okay so you know this, that's good. My advice is please, PLEASE do not fuck over the future you with a fully developed brain. You will regret it more than you can imagine. You "dug yourself in your own hole" - do you mean, you should have applied to more places/places with better funding this cycle? If that's what you mean, just wait for the next cycle. Don't dig yourself into a bigger hole by taking on debt. I don't have an MFA yet myself, but I went into debt for grad school, in a STEM field. I didn't get offered any funding, both because I only applied to Master's programs (even the dumbass I was back then knew a PhD was not for me) and because my undergrad grades were bad. With hindsight, I know they were bad because I was trying to fit myself into this STEM box so I could get a high paying job, when what I really wanted was to be a writer! lol. Anyway, my thinking went "I want to have [particular job title] and the only way I can get a job doing that is to have a master's, so I will do whatever it takes." So I took out loans (and I was very stupid about how much I took, too, I won't get into all that now though)...and I DID get a high paying job in my field, so it was "worth it," except then I spent ten years paying off my loans. And they're only paid off now because I paid SO much, like the last few years I refinanced and put myself on an aggressive timeline, paying $1500/month. The whole time, I resented it SO much. I tried to let it go and not think about it, but any time I did think about it (like when I'd get my tax statement saying how many thousands I'd paid just in INTEREST for a given year) I'd get very worked up. So, yeah, the debt is terrible, and this was for a degree that at least did what it was "supposed" to do, helping me get a high paying job in my field. The same can never be said for an MFA, where all you can really expect from it is to become a better writer (but...what is "better?") - no guarantee of publication, job, anything! I hope that was a sufficiently convincing reality check Good luck - I really do understand the "fuck it, I'm doing it anyway" impulse, and the "if I don't do it now another year will pass me by!" feeling...but they should not be indulged.

Awesome, thanks for the info! I'm bummed to be going into another week waiting on WW...esp since Bennington has such a short timeline to respond.

Nice! Yeah, I really enjoyed my conversations with Lisa and Colette. So enthusiastic and helpful.

Any low-res applicants here? For various reasons I can't relocate, and I have the $ for a low-res program and have decided it's worth it to me (sorry for the defensive preamble, but sometimes it seems like Qs about low-res programs get derailed by everyone wanting to tell you why they're cynical cash grabs and only an idiot would consider them, and I really don't need that...maybe that's just on reddit though, lol). I've got six acceptances so far (fiction), pared down to four that I'm interested in, and am struggling to weigh them objectively - VFCA, Antioch, Sewanee, Bennington. I'm also waiting on three more schools, including Warren Wilson. VCFA, Antioch and Bennington offered scholarship $ - not a ton, but nice (although Antioch in particular I wonder about, from the draft spreadsheet it seems like everyone gets about the same amount even though they called it "competitive?") Sewanee offered me a named scholarship that goes to just one person in each genre, 30% off tuition. That's so exciting to me, for the $ itself but also for what it means, that they really appreciate and understand my work and I'd fit well with the program...but I somehow missed when I applied that their once a year residency is 6 weeks. It's June 7 - July 17, and at a glance I parsed that as June 7 - JUNE 17 i.e. 10 days. Boy did I feel dumb when I realized (and I confessed this misunderstanding to the program director and now I keep imagining him pulling the offer since I have outed myself as an unserious person who can't read). I have two kids and leaving them for six weeks, such a large portion of their vacation, isn't really doable. I hadn't planned any care for them at that time cause I'm a stay at home parent. So we're at least considering all going down there, and having the kids in day camps (at least the younger one, they're 8 and 12) while I'm in class and my husband works remotely. That's a big thing to try to do, though, and not sure if it's "worth" it...also it's 3 years instead of 2, which I really like, but that means this question of how to manage the summer is something we'd be dealing with for 3 years. If I didn't have kids I'd be very into the idea of six weeks of study! Immersion! More time to get to know classmates and faculty! But that's not even to say "without the difficulty making the 6 weeks work, they'd be my top choice" - I'm not sure! Bennington offered me deferred admission, for January 2027 (I can also ask to be on their waitlist for summer, and if that doesn't work I still have my spot for winter guaranteed). This hurt my ego at first - why aren't I good enough to be accepted with the rest of the summer people! But now that I've calmed down I'm thinking - maybe it would actually be good to go somewhere where I'm one of the not-as-talented people, so my classmates can really inspire and push me to get better?? I prefer to start this summer, but starting in winter wouldn't be the end of the world. Also, Claire Vaye Watkins teaches there. I won't go into what appeals to me about Antioch and VCFA as this is already long, but they both also seem really solid and I'm sure I'd get a lot out of either, and they told me what they liked about my work specifically and why it would be a good fit. Oh and Antioch would let me dabble in screenwriting which I've always been curious about. ...And then there's Warren Wilson - not sure how likely I am to actually get in there, but based on results thus far I'm guessing pretty likely? Before I started actually applying, I thought "if I get into Warren Wilson I'll just go there, cause they're 'the best' - easy peasy." But now I'm thinking that was not the best way to think about it and I want to be more methodical about the decision...but still not sure how to make a choice that is actually right and not based on my admittedly often emotional reasoning! I did try to make a pro-con list, and Warren Wilson won that, but in large part because I listed all faculty at each school I'd be excited to work with, and assigned a point for each one, and WW has SO many great writers on faculty...but there too I second guess myself, cause there wouldn't even be enough time to study with all the ones I listed, and I also have no idea if they teach as well as they write! Sorry for the very long post, what I'm looking for is any general feedback on how to choose between these places , and especially anyone who has specific experience or information about any of them. Thanks, and best of luck to everyone!!