stilesg57

Working in the field last year, it became very clear to me that Duke Sanford/Nicholas and Indiana SPEA are the lead programs in this area. Those two programs were responsible for more than two-thirds of the research and personnel I was working with in clean tech in China. It's one of the main reasons I chose Duke.

Since you have an interesting job already lined up, I'd lean slightly toward the work experience route. You've got some great school choices though, I see your dilemma. The economy and job market will be a lot better by the time you graduate, but it will still help you in your future job search to have some experience besides internships.

I'd second Harris and add Duke's Sanford School of Public Policy.

Your sister is more correct than most of us want to admit However, it's not like SPEA grads don't get jobs, and the school IS known within the enviro community, so I wouldn't worry too much about that side of it. It sounds like you want to go to SPEA.

I had to do it last year. It isn't recommended, but it isn't the worst thing in the world either. Better to do it than be in a program that doesn't fit. They'll get over you

Both schools had an April 15th decision. I accepted Ford's offer and turned down Sanford. About three weeks later I felt like Sanford may have been the better choice for me, so I talked with Sanford admissions to see if they still had room and if their offer of acceptance still stood. I got lucky: they were targeting a class of 50 and had 48. They said my offer of admission still stood if I was interested in switching from Ford. I had a to get a release letter from Ford saying I could drop their program and go to another one (had something to do with the association/council of grad schools or something like that). When they released me from my decision Sanford accepted me, and here I am.

Man, tough decision. Frankly, any of them will work out great, so don't be too worried. I agree with the Harris grad about Harris' advantage in academia. I do feel it's the best pre-PhD program of the three. That said, one of the best pre-PhD things going is having no debt BEFORE you begin a 4-8 year program (during which interest keeps accruing) to get out and make maybe mid-$60s. It's tough to swallow debt if you plan on a PhD eventually. However, plans can change - there are apparently always a dozen Duke MPPs who want a PhD coming into the program and only two or three grads a year actually go that way. I'm not familiar with GTown's program, though I believe I've heard its only a one year deal. That also has positives and negatives, as does GTown's professional and DC-centric focus. I know you're surprised to hear this, but I think Duke is great. What can I say: I'm jealous of your full ride It may not be preferable to Harris for a future PhD application, but it isn't going to hurt you by any means. I would also say not to worry about Durham; it's honestly not an issue. Everyone worries about Durham (including me) coming into Duke and everyone realizes in about a week that it isn't an issue at all. Good luck with your decision, you've got a great problem to have!

Someone say my name? As someone who was very excited to get into Harris - and equally crushed when I realized that without any financial aid I could never justify attending there - here's what I've come up with on Chicago. These are the things that made me feel better in turning Harris down and/or things I've learned about the programs since last fall: 1. Harris is more of a feeder school to all the big Chicago consulting firms than Sanford is to all the big Durham consulting firms 2. Harris alumni are located primarily in Chicago, the greater midwest, and DC - seemingly in that order. 3. Chicago's a tad more of an academic program; Sanford seems a tad more like a professional/management program (I feel comfortable saying the same about Ford BTW). 4. More quant courses are required in the core curriculum, but this doesn't mean it's a quant-specific program while Sanford's pumping out a bunch of philosophers. You can get a much more quantitative program at Sanford than Chicago's core curriculum if that's your thing (taking advance-track quant courses, courses in the math and econ departments, etc). Our three standout quant guys in my class all looked at Chicago, and obviously they all came here. 5. Two of these quant peeps visited Chicago and mentioned that the facilities at Harris are not terribly nice (Sanford's are); I believe they're building some new facilities for Harris in the next few years. 6. Chicago has a conservative reputation that draws certain candidates there. A good college friend of mine who's doing her PhD at Berkeley in PoliSci says the U Chicago people can be an "interesting" crowd, and that its a noticeable trait. 7. Living expenses are quite a bit lower in Durham than in Hyde Park. 8. Their basketball team sucks So it depends what you're looking for. If you're looking specifically for a PhD feeder program, I'd probably recommend Chicago. If you specifically want to work in consulting or in the city of Chicago itself, I'd probably recommend Harris. Otherwise, I kinda like Duke - surprise surprise As for some of your other questions: Sanford's reputation will do nothing but help you in the job market. Employers recruit on campus and eat up Sanford grads. It's cool seeing this from a removed perspective with the 2nd years right now; even in this horrendous job market they're all doing pretty well. I don't think Chicago holds any advantage in this regard frankly. The Sanford grad placement and alumni network speaks for itself. If you want to work in the federal government or in DC this is a GREAT place to be. That said, if you want out of NC or DC, you do have to work at it a bit (I'm in that boat - its becoming less of a problem as I search harder for internships frankly). Career services is not oriented towards the west coast, but that hasn't stopped me from getting deep into the interview process for internships west of Denver. The small cohort size (~50) has benefits and drawbacks, just as a larger cohort size does. The benefits are you get to be really close friends with a bunch of interesting people. I knew everyone in my class in about a week and all the 2nd years within a month. It's cool to be plugged in with a group of go-getters like these. The friendly atmosphere is also helped, as is access to - and personal attention from - your professors. Downsides are that is not as broad of an experience pool as there would be if the program were larger; as an enviro guy I recognize that there'd be some value in having ~30 tree huggers in my class instead of ~15. Also, you see the same people every day. Honestly, this is really a personal atmosphere/preference issue. I went to a small liberal arts school for undergrad, and I like the small class sizes at Duke - just the way I'm wired I guess. As we're knocking on the door of the deadline here, I would encourage anyone to email me directly with questions as I'll likely be able to get to them faster. I'm at garrett dot stiles at duke.edu Good luck with the decisions everyone, just remember that if you're looking between a bunch of great schools like these you can't lose!

Congrats man! It was great meeting you at Open House; you'll do well in this program. As for housing questions: you should've homestayed with me, you'd know how awesome my little neighborhood is I'm at 2201 Caroline Dr. - feel free to google map it and see about where it is. Most people live south or east of campus; I'm one of the holdouts on the west side (can't get the CA out of me I guess). I'm 4 miles and 3 stoplights from the Sanford parking lot, about a 10-12 minute drive down 751 through the Duke Forest. Tell you what, you've got my email address so feel free to ask me about any places you're looking at and I can give you the lowdown. The big decisions are apartment v. house, then location, then price IMO. I came out here sight-unseen with three days to go till classes and it worked out. Not that I'd recommend that, but it just shows that even last minute searching can be successful. Keep in touch and I'll see you in the fall. Unless this internship in Seal Beach works out.....

I'm convinced that career services across Duke are just off the charts. Every career center I've dealt with has blown me away. Sanford's is awesome, Fuqua's is insane, Nick's is great, even the undergrads have a career services setup I would never have imagined for professional schools, let alone undergrads. Hahaha, last year's too-big-of-a-class debacle at Nick is known campus-wide Every now and then the statistical models don't hold up. My undergrad has a dorm hall that is housed in the town's old hospital, which was purchased and converted to student housing after admissions suddenly had 30% more students than they were expecting back in the late '70s. Model fail

Sorry I've been away for a few days all, been a pretty crazy week (not to mention them Blue Devils!!!) Let me take a few of the questions: This is true - they've changed the process this year and are giving their best aid offer right off the bat. I think it's a better (and more professional, frankly) way of doing it rather than outright encouraging haggling like they did last year. But it does cut back on negotiating for more help of course. I'm sorry cost issues pushed you away from Sanford, best of luck wherever you're headed! "very late" was like the day before or day of the April 15th deadline as I recall. They really did come through with a great package at that point though. I committed Michigan for the 4/15 deadline then changed to Sanford about three or four weeks later. Good luck with Ford or wherever you decided to go - I'm sure you'll do well. And thanks for thinking I'm doing a good job - Sanford is a pretty easy place to say nice things about Hey Adrian! Hope you made it back safe and got some rest 1. Nope. No time. I don't think it's even allowed. A couple people - like 5 or so - had tutoring gigs or sports ref'ing part-time jobs when the program started but they've pretty much all dropped them. Really, you CAN'T work and be a full-time student at Sanford, there aren't enough hours in the week. The closest you can do is a TA/GA/RA assistantship for the semester that pays ~$4k (which is REALLY good $ per hour) in your 2nd and 3rd (and possibly 4th) semesters, but I'm at the point I may not do it next semester just because of the time issue. This is just a different program than say the DC ones that have you working internships while you're going to school. 2. Don't know - not a 2nd year yet 3. Hit-and-miss is probably a good way to describe Durham. There are some rough patches, but the "hits" really are nice. This is a niceer place than I expected, really. I hear you about being nervous walking into a place you don't know - I also moved here from San Diego and I just showed up three days before classes started, got a hotel room, and craigslisted my way around about 5 houses/apartments till I found this one I live in a house 4 miles from Sanford - 10 min. drive, 35 min. bike, 50 min. bus ride. I'm in the bottom floor of the house and a Duke PhD is in the upper floor; each floor has two bedrooms. $600/month, all utilities save electricity and internet included - so with a roommate I'm paying about $330 a month (absolutely insanely cheap!). It's a nice area and I've never felt unsafe or anything in my neighborhood.

The big thing here is deciding if you want a PhD or an MPP. They're both ENTIRELY different study, research, and career paths. If you choose PhD you've got your answer; if you choose MPP and have any questions about Sanford shoot me a message. Good luck, you've got a good "problem" to have!

I'm not sure exactly how the details are going to work out yet, but it certainly sounds like Obama helped us out a bit with this issue earlier today.

Thanks! Yeah, I want Fuqua I applied for R3 and have an interview on the 9th. If I get in this year it will be a dual degree MPP/MBA in 3 years. I only applied to Fuqua. I don't want an MBA per se, I want their MBA specifically, for several reasons that I can't go into with two papers due in about 6 hours. If I get in I'll go, unquestionably. If not, I doubt I'll re-apply next year unless my internship this summer is life-changing and I think I can get enough financial aid so that the debt load makes sense. After all, there's a "how has your application improved?" essay required for re-applicants; I would want to have a good answer and I don't necessarily see one developing between now and December. I think this is the last time I'll go back to school so I'd like to get it all done now if possible, and the MBA would help me do what I want: Corporate Social Responsibility Officer / Climate Change Officer at a big organization. So that's my reasoning. This is exactly what I'm seeing. We may learn more analytical stuff than the MBAs, but they have more options and make more money in the private sector (though I believe this situation may improve in time).

Makes sense - right on average for these degrees.

Google all you like; Google doesn't make the decision unfortunately Call the university before you bank on it. When I started asking in March '09, I had Cali plates on my car since February '08, rent and utility bills in my name (continuously in CA) since January '08, and pay stubs w/ CA-based companies for about 7 months of that period. They still turned me down and said that you couldn't convert being a resident for the purpose of going to school into in-state tuition. Surprised me too. Good luck. Edit: also worth noting that I voted in CO in November '08. Perhaps that's what did me in (but there's still no way you could consider CO my "residence" for that year+)

I'll leave this thread to the visiting admitted students so they feel free to post their thoughts, but I would like to say this: I was really impressed with the prospective students. A good group of some genuinely fine people. Lots of talent and really cool backgrounds all around. It's cool to see neat people in the same spot you were in last year; sifting through a bunch of great options the worst of which is likely still an awesome deal. Also, even given the travel distance it seemed like there was a lot of geographic diversity in the admitted group, which is a good thing. That's all - I'll stop tainting this thread with "official" (HA!) Sanford responses

They canceled the bonfire over a mild drizzle of rain. Epic failure if you ask me.

I don't really get the rationale behind the MPP/JD. We've got two in my program - both are NC residents paying REALLY cheap in-state tuition at UNC Law for the JD portion of their degrees - and they both have said it's because it's not too much extra money beyond a law degree and it will allow them to specialize in the type of law they want even with limited experience (both are enviro people). Me, personally, I feel like the MPP is often for the kinds of jobs that people used to get law degrees for, so I don't see the need. MPP/MBA, now this I do feel is a good setup. Borrowed from another post of mine: I'm sensing that the MBA isn't what it used to be given our current economy and the recent flood of MBA grads. 5 years ago yeah, the MBA was the more versatile degree. But I don't think so anymore. While I'm seeing an employer demand for MBA skills I'm still glad I'm at an MPP program for what I want to do. I do think there's incredible value in coupling these degrees if you think you'll likely work in the private sector though (like me). That gives the you MBA and all its benefits while also specializing in a specific field and demonstrating your seriousness in that area. The MBA will give you a business-skills advantage over the IRs and MPPs while the MPP degree will be the edge over all the other generic MBAs by showing you're seriously committed to your specific field. Just my thoughts. I am currently applying to an MPP/MBA dual degree program under this reasoning. They may a lot more money than straight-up MPPs too

Of course this all depends on your options. My cheapest option was living with my parents and going to an unranked program that nobody's ever heard of and would only improve my hiring chances within 100 miles of Denver. That would've left me $25k in the hole. UCLA & UCSD would've been $55k, Duke and Michigan $70k, and Chicago right around $100k. Given my options, I think it makes total sense that my choice came down to Duke and Michigan. I talked with our career services extraordinaire, Donna Dyer, today. Actually she demanded I come talk to her because she's keeping up on me and knows I'm behind on my internship search (THAT'S career services). Anyway, I asked her about the debt thing too and she had a similar position: she's never heard any grads bring it up. She's had grads say they need to change careers or leave the public sector for more money for a house or a baby and things like that, but never because of debt. I told her my debt situation ($80k combined after graduation) and she said I wasn't much over the average. So it can't be THAT big of a deal. Unless the cost is off the charts ridiculous (like, $100k+), I'd probably say go to the best school you can get into that fits you well.

I'm not at either school, but I did get into IR/PS and shopped it hard as I was living in SD for a good chunk of the time I was applying to schools. The reason I'm not in law school right now: no options. I don't want to be a lawyer at a big firm, and the debt load is so high that you HAVE to be just to pay them down. MPPs have options with what kind of job they want to do, assuming a sane debt level (under $100k) $140k sounds an awful lot like law school debt levels. But with this kind of degree I don't think you even have the option of a $120k+ salary to pay that down the way a law grad does. I'm sure I sound like I'm reversing myself a bit because just wrote a piece about not fearing debt too much. But man, $140k is a lot for one of these degrees. Even if you get lucky, it will will be a long time before you're making that much in salary. Two quick things about IR/PS: 1) You can't get in-state tuition after your first year. California law doesn't allow you to claim residency if you "moved to the state for the purpose of going to school." Believe me I know: I love San Diego, already had an apartment there with my best friend, want to work on the West Coast, and had my best aid package at IR/PS. I spent two days arguing with their admissions people about it (I had lived in CA for over a year since I first applied at that point) and they said I would not get in-state tuition. 2) Starting salaries probably aren't published because they're unusually low right now. CA is in a BRUTAL recession; SD county is knocking on the door of 20% unemployment for twenty-somethings. You have to live there - or try to get a job like I did - for awhile to fully understand it. Also, career services was a little iffy at IR/PS. Better than UCLA, but iffy. At a mixer I attended, the alumni didn't come off as loyal as I had hoped.

Couple thoughts: First, that article is referring to PhD seekers, and for them it makes sense. Not as much for professional degrees, especially law and MBA. Second, I was freaked out about debt before I started my program, and now I'm not so worried. I've met with a lot of alumni in the last few months - a LOT of them - and nobody's complaining about debt payments. I even started politely asking because it never came up. Take that for what it's worth. I don't know more than a handful of people within 5 years of my age (26) with just a bachelors who are as happy with their job and their income as MPP alums. I walked into my program with ~$10k of debt and completely unable to get the kind of job and salary I wanted; I'll walk out with ~$80k and few if any regrets. I'm not worried.

The PMF - if you can get it - is about the best way to get into Federal employment. Almost certain it requires a masters degree.

I wouldn't pour too much brain power into trying to decipher the minutiae. The Masters level is definitely a different animal than the undergrad level for both of them. The alumni base and how the schools position their programs is very important of course, but from my experience working with people in Beijing with IR degrees (primarily SAIS people) and comparing it to the MPP program here at Duke I'd say that an IR degree with a policy focus and an MPP with an international focus are often po-tay-to / po-tah-to. I'd certainly consider both kinds of programs if you want to do international policy work.

I wouldn't worry about a lack of publicly available hard numbers. There are lots of reasons why those can't always be made available to everyone who asks and nobody wants to make a mistake in any official writing. Duke is an example of this. While the numbers on the website are "soft" (something like job placement is so unique that there is often no point in bothering with BS statistical methodologies ala US News' rankings), the performance of the career center is anything but. Last year was the worst hiring season in a dozen years, and the last Sanford MPP was placed in October. That's right, 100% employment by October. And that's the worst in over a decade since our current career center head has been there; it's normally reached earlier. That's really an amazing feat when you think about it: it's not easy finding a category of people that are at 100% employment in this economy. Should you be nervous about Sanford's career services because the stats on the website are organized into broad categories and are a couple years old? Nope. I have a feeling Harris is likely similar.