Terminal M.A. Advice

[elodin]

Hey folks,

I'll likely be entering a terminal M.A. program this Fall, coming from an engineering background and a few years in industry. Do those of you with experience have any advice to share?

Some specific questions:

1. What is the best way to test the hypothesis that a career in philosophy is the right fit? 
2. Would it make sense to do some independent study/research-for-credit in the first year, towards a stronger writing sample? Or, is it wiser to invest time gaining a broad philosophical eduction?
   1. It seems like the latter is more in the spirit of MA programs, but that the former would be more strategic.
3. Did you find the environment to be competitive?
   1. I see some programs consistently place just 1 student in a top 10 PGR program. I wonder whether this is largely a function of one's overall rank in the class.  
4. What do you wish you had discussed with/learned from your advisor in the first year?
5. Anything in particular that you wish you had known before entering?

Thanks in advance!

[hector549]

2 hours ago, elodin said:

Hey folks,

I'll likely be entering a terminal M.A. program this Fall, coming from an engineering background and a few years in industry. Do those of you with experience have any advice to share?

Some specific questions:

1. What is the best way to test the hypothesis that a career in philosophy is the right fit? 
2. Would it make sense to do some independent study/research-for-credit in the first year, towards a stronger writing sample? Or, is it wiser to invest time gaining a broad philosophical eduction?
   1. It seems like the latter is more in the spirit of MA programs, but that the former would be more strategic.
3. Did you find the environment to be competitive?
   1. I see some programs consistently place just 1 student in a top 10 PGR program. I wonder whether this is largely a function of one's overall rank in the class.  
4. What do you wish you had discussed with/learned from your advisor in the first year?
5. Anything in particular that you wish you had known before entering?

Thanks in advance!

I'm in my first year of an MA at a notable program.

1. An MA is a good way to test the waters. Make sure you're aware of the job market in relation to your plans for an academic career. Graduate study in philosophy means (most of the time) living on very little money for a long time and working very hard, with no guarantee of a job at the end of it. You probably won't get a job, and if you do, it won't be a "good" one (i.e. tenure-track, pays well, at a research institution, etc).

2. Generally, the advice is to explore your interests, but also develop a broad background/expand your knowledge at least a bit. Getting some exposure is also good if you didn't major in philosophy as an undergraduate. If you're going into an MA, you're not going to be able to specialize that much, and there's no real reason to do so. Most programs will have some kind of area requirements you'll need to meet, particularly if you didn't do philosophy for your undergraduate degree. Focus on doing well in your coursework in your first year, and pick a project that you're excited about for your sample/thesis based on the work you've done in that first year.

3. Competitive in what sense? In the sense of people trying to one-up each other? No, I haven't. Different programs may have a different flavor though, so it's a good idea to talk to current students and visit if you can to get a sense of the program's culture.

Edit--OK, I just re-read your comment. I'm not through yet, but I suspect that this might be pretty program-dependent. There are no duds in my program, though. Sometimes smart people end up at unranked programs. There can be any number of reasons for that.

4. I'm not quite through my first year yet...but definitely don't be afraid to ask your advisor for feedback/input/etc on your work. Faculty are busy, and they won't necessarily hold your hand by offering things. However, in my experience, if you ask, you'll get what you need.

5. Here are a few things:

Even MA programs that are fully-funded often don't tell you that you'll (usually) be paying fees every semester (which can be a lot) and don't always make it clear that you generally can't quite actually live on the stipend. Long story short--expect to take out some loans, even with "full" funding, unless you have savings or support from your family. Keep in mind cost-of-living in relation to where the program is located.

If there's a faculty-member you really want to work with, make sure that he or she is actually teaching while you'll be there. If you want to develop work with that person into a thesis and/or sample, that'll be easier if she or he is teaching in your first year. Most people develop their samples/theses from something they wrote in their first year.

Keep in mind how big the faculty/cohorts are. Will you have access to lots of different faculty if your interests change/will you have a chance to explore those interests a bit? Having a larger faculty can be good for that. Will you be competing for faculty attention with a large cohort?

Keep in mind that teaching requirements at different programs can very quite a bit (if you have a TA-ship). Grading is less work than TAing a few discussion sections a semester, which is less work than teaching your own course. Teaching your own course can be good experience, but also eat into time you have for coursework/thesis/sample/being human--go into programs that require independent teaching with your eyes open.

If you don't love everything about the program, don't fret. It goes by really quickly. It doesn't need to be perfect.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by hector549

[Neither Here Nor There]

I would start with your coursework and then do your thesis or research project, unless there is a pressing reason to. Your coursework is preparing you to write a tight and rigorous writing sample, in the sense that you are practicing writing lengthy papers of junior scholar quality, and indeed, a term paper can be modified into a writing sample. I finished my MA thesis last semester and did not use it as my writing sample. It was ultimately on the same topic as the thesis, but the entire program, coursework and thesis, helped me become a better writer. 

[Spinozian]

3 hours ago, elodin said:

Hey folks,

I'll likely be entering a terminal M.A. program this Fall, coming from an engineering background and a few years in industry. Do those of you with experience have any advice to share?

Some specific questions:

1. What is the best way to test the hypothesis that a career in philosophy is the right fit? 
2. Would it make sense to do some independent study/research-for-credit in the first year, towards a stronger writing sample? Or, is it wiser to invest time gaining a broad philosophical eduction?
   1. It seems like the latter is more in the spirit of MA programs, but that the former would be more strategic.
3. Did you find the environment to be competitive?
   1. I see some programs consistently place just 1 student in a top 10 PGR program. I wonder whether this is largely a function of one's overall rank in the class.  
4. What do you wish you had discussed with/learned from your advisor in the first year?
5. Anything in particular that you wish you had known before entering?

Thanks in advance!

Hey, just finished a Terminal MA program and was accepted into a PhD program (along with a few others from the program). I'll try and take these in turn, and as usual, grain of salt.

 

1. If you don't find yourself wishing you were doing something else. Or, if it makes you unhappy. Not like existential dread, that's not bad and sort of part of the gig. But if you're wishing you were doing a 9-5 or bagging groceries instead of writing a paper on what you assume is your area of interest....well...

2. You'll do both in a terminal MA program depending on the program itself. You'll take some courses that'll make you research in your area of interest, and odds are you'll be TAing or taking seminars in things not directly related to your immediate interests that'll broaden you out. Also, you might have an exam depending on your program that'll require you to have a broad understanding of the history of philosophy more generally. That being said, yes, make time to get good in your area of interest. Ideally that's what you'll spend the rest of your life doing, now is as good a time as ever to get a foundation in it.

3. My program was large but wholly non-competitive; my closest friends were the ones sending the same apps to the same schools with the same committees doing work in the same fields. It's a lottery, and there's no real need to feel like you've gotta be better than the person next to you. That being said, that doesn't mean be lazy. Go to conferences, polish your papers, ask for feedback, and make sure to keep in contact with your professors in your area of interest. Do the work and do it as well as you can. This is your job now.

4. I don't have any immediate regrets, but I will say that once you find your 'niche,' find someone who does it and publishes in it and try to get some time in with them, even if it's just asking for a reading list (independent studies are also great for this). This might add a bit to my answer in #2.

5. Yes. Your life changes in grad school. The kind of work is different not just in degree of difficulty but in the type of work (production of knowledge instead of regurgitation). It is difficult for a lot of reasons that aren't academic. Have a support system in place and do not stagnate and dwell on the 'what could have been.' Don't be that person bragging about lack of hours of sleep and not having anything but coffee in your body. Take care of yourself - existence precedes essence, so make sure you're kicking ass at existing and then worry about being a philosopher (your essence in this not-well-formed-or-thought-out-but-still-maybe-neat-analogy). There's no reason to not try and be healthy (in all applicable ways and in light of all possible constraints) and happy doing this IF this is what you want to do.

Good luck.

[Scoots]

With your engineering background and your numbered paragraphs... are you channeling Wittgenstein? 
(Sorry, I don’t have anything helpful to add!)

[syn]

11 hours ago, elodin said:

1. What is the best way to test the hypothesis that a career in philosophy is the right fit? 
2. Would it make sense to do some independent study/research-for-credit in the first year, towards a stronger writing sample? Or, is it wiser to invest time gaining a broad philosophical eduction?
   1. It seems like the latter is more in the spirit of MA programs, but that the former would be more strategic.
3. Did you find the environment to be competitive?
   1. I see some programs consistently place just 1 student in a top 10 PGR program. I wonder whether this is largely a function of one's overall rank in the class.  
4. What do you wish you had discussed with/learned from your advisor in the first year?
5. Anything in particular that you wish you had known before entering?

1. Either one of two ways: some natural predisposition to doing well in Philosophy, or by working extremely hard on your writing and argument structure.  Feedback from Profs will be key.
2. Absolutely. I found it incredibly helpful to specialize as early as possible.  By doing research very early I was able to make connections with Profs and position papers for big conferences. Remember: a terminal MA is 1-2 years, so you don't have much time. Coming from my first semester, I submitted to 20 conferences, was accepted to 11, and presented at 4. For my second semester, I wrote a paper that got me into two additional conferences, including an APA.  Start early, finish strong.
3. Not even remotely. But, like others said, this might depend on the program.  As far as I'm aware, out of my class, only a few of us were regularly submitting for conferences or publications; I think I was the only one "over-doing it."
4. I wish I had planned out my program better.  I'm leaving my terminal MA for a PhD next year (accepted already, so it's a foregone conclusion).  I could've completed the program had I really taken the time to plan it out, though it's unnecessary at this point.  Just still would've been nice.
5. Yeah, apply early and get funding.  Fortunately my Profs were really, really nice and found some TAships and was invited to a RAship that paid for a semester + $5k.  But had I applied when I should have (I was a late entry), I likely would've been given substantial funding in addition to waiting tuition.

One note: before you decide that it is your chosen career, make sure you're okay with the money you're bound to make.  There's lots of public info about salaries, especially in academia.  It's nowhere near what you'd make as an engineer.

Good luck!

[machineghost]

I worked as a software engineer for over a decade prior to entering a terminal MA. Having a viable backup plan has really made things easier for me. If I strike out this admissions season, I can go back into software, which is nice. You’d be in a similar boat, presumably, and that should give you lots of confidence that you can test the waters of academia at a terminal MA without worrying too much that you’re making a horrible decision. If you don’t like it, go back into engineering. If you do, well then apply to PhD programs. That, at least, is what I did. 

[elodin]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies! I'll be carefully considering the advice offered. 

[akraticfanatic]

I'm not trying to sound harsh but in all honesty, if you have to test the hypothesis then it's self-refuting. Don't do it if you're not sure it's what you want. It's a hell of a life. 

[machineghost]

13 hours ago, akraticfanatic said:

I'm not trying to sound harsh but in all honesty, if you have to test the hypothesis then it's self-refuting. Don't do it if you're not sure it's what you want. It's a hell of a life. 

I disagree. It is a hell of a life, to be sure, but it’s also a hell of a life working a job that you find soul-crushing and dull and imagining yourself doing that same job for 30 more years when you think there might be something else that you’d enjoy a great deal more. It’s perfectly reasonable to try it on to see if it fits. For me, it will allow me to go back into said job with the monkey off my back, allowing me to appreciate it a bit more and to know that academia wasn’t for me after all (assuming I end up back in software).

[hector549]

20 hours ago, machineghost said:

I disagree. It is a hell of a life, to be sure, but it’s also a hell of a life working a job that you find soul-crushing and dull and imagining yourself doing that same job for 30 more years when you think there might be something else that you’d enjoy a great deal more. It’s perfectly reasonable to try it on to see if it fits. For me, it will allow me to go back into said job with the monkey off my back, allowing me to appreciate it a bit more and to know that academia wasn’t for me after all (assuming I end up back in software).

Yeah, this is one of the advantages of an MA--you can test being an academic without committing yourself to a PhD program. You'll get quite a different perspective on academic philosophy and on academia once you start a graduate program than you had as an undergrad. Your relationship to faculty will be different. Your relationship to the academy will be different. It's not for everyone, and it can be hard to know exactly how it will feel to you without trying it out. Most of the people in my program have gone on to PhD's, but not everyone. Academia may be different than you thought. Determination is fine, but it's okay to consciously try things out.

Edited February 20, 2018 by hector549

[elodin]

I thought (1) might prove a bit controversial. @akraticfanatic thanks for the pressure to clarify where I'm coming from, in case what I have to say is useful for others.

First, let me just agree that there are situations so difficult that nothing short of iron-clad, resolute conviction will get one through. But my goal in pursuing professional philosophy is to flourish, not just survive. And with flourishing in mind, I'd like to think that there is a golden mean to be achieved between cowardice (not even attempting philosophy) and recklessness (pursuing it at the expense of my own well-being). With (1) I was looking for advice on how to evaluate whether I am indeed flourishing as a philosopher.  (Big thanks again for all of the guidance, people!)

My first experience with this sort of challenge was in building a technology company. I learned that some things are painful in a good way, and others are painful in a bad way. I also developed a skepticism of self-sacrificial attitudes (which are often perversely egoistic). One tactic I used to try to steer towards the mean was to set aside specific dates to re-evaluate my path. When I noticed things going poorly day-after-day, I set a date to allow myself full skepticism and compartmentalized my doubts in the meantime. This method didn't work perfectly for me, but I would recommend it to others nonetheless.

Edited February 21, 2018 by elodin