Assessing what I've heard

[painter]

My results thus far:

Rejected:

SAIC

Cal Arts

UCLA

Yale

No word yet:

VCU

Columbia

RISD

I keep hearing from others that grad programs favor those applicants who are not straight out of undergrad. I am. Was wondering how many of you are also current undergrads? Is this information I've gotten accurate?

[littlenova]

I am almost 4 years out of undergrad. Most of the programs I applied to mentioned they prefer students that have had some time to solidify their voice. (By showing or making or editing down their body of work, etc.)

Sometimes, people arrive at this early. They just always have had a clear sense of self and what their work was about. I have heard (especially on this board) of people getting into AMAZING programs right out of undergrad. This is not the case for everyone and it is a very personal decision. It took me a few years, a few residencies and some shows to find myself a bit. I was all over the place in undergrad. I don't think it's about timing as much as it is about your timing. Ya know?

[painter]

I am almost 4 years out of undergrad. Most of the programs I applied to mentioned they prefer students that have had some time to solidify their voice. (By showing or making or editing down their body of work, etc.)

Sometimes, people arrive at this early. They just always have had a clear sense of self and what their work was about. I have heard (especially on this board) of people getting into AMAZING programs right out of undergrad. This is not the case for everyone and it is a very personal decision. It took me a few years, a few residencies and some shows to find myself a bit. I was all over the place in undergrad. I don't think it's about timing as much as it is about your timing. Ya know?

[painter]

Thanks so much for your reply. I feel strongly as though I am ready-- now. But obviously, can't control how others view me. Keep seeiong on here that people have had interviews or acceptances at RISD and VCU, but I haven't heard anything. Starting to feel kind opf desperate.

If I don't get in anywhere, what residencies do you recommend?

[savantarde]

My results thus far:

Rejected:

SAIC

Cal Arts

UCLA

Yale

No word yet:

VCU

Columbia

RISD

I keep hearing from others that grad programs favor those applicants who are not straight out of undergrad. I am. Was wondering how many of you are also current undergrads? Is this information I've gotten accurate?

I am completing my undergraduate degree as we speak--finished in May.

However, I am also a non-traditional student (will be 29 in three months), and had been in and out of Junior college for many years.

So, in that respect, I've had plenty of time to decide that I am, in fact, suited for the graduate experience, and have had some out-of-classroom experience to draw from.

Not having this, however, is not an automatic deterrent, from what I've heard.

[littlenova]

VCU is still considering people. They also have a waiting list and I know people who were admitted after April 15th from being on their waiting lists...So...Keep hope alive!

I hear Vermont Studio is good for painters, Atlantic Center of the Arts was wonderful, too.(see my other posts) I am a photographer/video person, so I have different interests...but, there are a bunch out there for painting.

I think this is very different then say applying to law school...The outside world doesn't know what we go through and the kind of rejection we have to deal with when we put our stuff out there. Sometimes, too...It's what is "hot" at the moment. I went to the Whitney this weekend and saw some 23 year old photographer's work and was PERPLEXED at how she blew up in New York---when her work is so immature. But, that's the world we are living in, eh? Sometimes people don't get it.

Don't give up.

[painter]

VCU is still considering people. They also have a waiting list and I know people who were admitted after April 15th from being on their waiting lists...So...Keep hope alive!

I hear Vermont Studio is good for painters, Atlantic Center of the Arts was wonderful, too.(see my other posts) I am a photographer/video person, so I have different interests...but, there are a bunch out there for painting.

I think this is very different then say applying to law school...The outside world doesn't know what we go through and the kind of rejection we have to deal with when we put our stuff out there. Sometimes, too...It's what is "hot" at the moment. I went to the Whitney this weekend and saw some 23 year old photographer's work and was PERPLEXED at how she blew up in New York---when her work is so immature. But, that's the world we are living in, eh? Sometimes people don't get it.

Don't give up.

[michaelwebster]

If you reapply next year or in a few years, I would also recommend finding a wider variety of schools according to ranking. Find schools you could enjoy from top 10 schools to ones ranked over 100. Each one of the schools you applied to are so competitive, you may have gotten into many schools ranked in the 50-20 range this time around if you had applied to them. Then you get more options and a better feel of where your work sits.

[jon cocktoe]

If you reapply next year or in a few years, I would also recommend finding a wider variety of schools according to ranking. Find schools you could enjoy from top 10 schools to ones ranked over 100. Each one of the schools you applied to are so competitive, you may have gotten into many schools ranked in the 50-20 range this time around if you had applied to them. Then you get more options and a better feel of where your work sits.

I think that's great advice, but how exactly do you figure out rankings for schools 20-100? The top 10-20 are easy enough to find in USnews, but is there another list published somewhere that I'm missing? All in all it seems like there's are pretty strong consensus as to who the top 10 are, but things get ambiguous when you get past #20.

[grad_wannabe]

I keep hearing from others that grad programs favor those applicants who are not straight out of undergrad. I am. Was wondering how many of you are also current undergrads? Is this information I've gotten accurate?

I had one interview where they actually voiced that as a problem: the fact that I'd just graduated (in May of 09) had been brought up as a negative during discussions of my application.

So, yes, they absolutely prefer people a few years out of UG, if only because those applicants are more focused and self-aware in what they're doing.

[Curious12345]

I'm only a half year out of undergrad....and to be honest most people I've talked to at SFAI who make decisions on grad applications (a couple whom I've assisted) have told me that there is no rhyme or reason to the decisions made. Most of them have told me on different occasions that sometimes they WILL pick someone whose art sucks but is consistent or is awesome and inconsistent. I guess it might be curiosity or just that SFAI is that different of a school, I don't know. Charlie at USC said during the info session that sometimes they pick people fresh out of undergrad just to have one or two there...so I don't know, there are politics, arguments, ideologies, all kinds of crap that is in between you and your grad degree...it has to really be the perfect storm for you to get in, finish, and then get a teaching position or whatever you want to do.

[Spaced Out]

VCU is still considering people. They also have a waiting list and I know people who were admitted after April 15th from being on their waiting lists...So...Keep hope alive!

I hear Vermont Studio is good for painters, Atlantic Center of the Arts was wonderful, too.(see my other posts) I am a photographer/video person, so I have different interests...but, there are a bunch out there for painting.

I think this is very different then say applying to law school...The outside world doesn't know what we go through and the kind of rejection we have to deal with when we put our stuff out there. Sometimes, too...It's what is "hot" at the moment. I went to the Whitney this weekend and saw some 23 year old photographer's work and was PERPLEXED at how she blew up in New York---when her work is so immature. But, that's the world we are living in, eh? Sometimes people don't get it.

Don't give up.

I am glad you touched on this point about being "hot" at the moment. Just because someone is making it in the biz whether it be music art or writing, doesn't particularly mean they are the most talented. When I was in undergrad I was so nervous because graffiti and street art was really starting to get a lot of press and crossing over more into the fine art realm. Street art is a large part of my process and I was so worried I was going to miss the boat. But since my 5 years out of school I have become a lot more comfortable with my sense of self and my work. Making things because I like to and need to. I dont know what grad school will bring me, I hope it will bring me more opportunities in the art world by meeting people and placing myself on a larger stage but in the end I just want to grow as an artist and continue to get "better". I believe this should be something one decides for themselves.

[michaelwebster]

I think that's great advice, but how exactly do you figure out rankings for schools 20-100? The top 10-20 are easy enough to find in USnews, but is there another list published somewhere that I'm missing? All in all it seems like there's are pretty strong consensus as to who the top 10 are, but things get ambiguous when you get past #20.

Here is the full list. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-fine-arts-schools/rankings

[intelly]

You can also go to the US News website and pay $15 and access the entire grad search engine for I think 6-9 months. It's totally worth it, because you can search the top schools within a specific program (because the top 10 schools for painting are going to differ from the top 10 schools for photography). You can also search a school and see where they rank.

When I was looking for schools, I used that list as a GUIDE, not a rule for the schools I applied to. I feel like 50% of the people on here just found the top 10 schools and applied to only those, which is a really stupid thing to do. I went to grad school Portfolio Days, got suggestions from UG professors, and researched schools my friends were applying to, THEN I would see how they ranked on that list. As long as the school was in the top 100, and I liked everything I saw, then I would apply.

US News lists the top 220 schools, there are THOUSANDS of colleges, so even if a school is ranked #215, that's still pretty decent!

And I agree about waiting a year or two. I'm 2 years out, and if you had asked me 2 years ago if I thought I was ready for grad school, I would have said "Hell yeah I am!". Looking back, I realize that I would have been eaten alive lol. My work is SOOO much tighter now.

[jon cocktoe]

I guess I missed the general fine arts list the first time around. I was only looking at the rankings for photography, and even with the premium paid access, the list only goes to about 20. The other problem is that rankings change a lot depending on discipline. For example, UNM is listed as #50 overall, but #5 for photo. That's a huge difference.

[Curious12345]

You can also go to the US News website and pay $15 and access the entire grad search engine for I think 6-9 months. It's totally worth it, because you can search the top schools within a specific program (because the top 10 schools for painting are going to differ from the top 10 schools for photography). You can also search a school and see where they rank.

When I was looking for schools, I used that list as a GUIDE, not a rule for the schools I applied to. I feel like 50% of the people on here just found the top 10 schools and applied to only those, which is a really stupid thing to do. I went to grad school Portfolio Days, got suggestions from UG professors, and researched schools my friends were applying to, THEN I would see how they ranked on that list. As long as the school was in the top 100, and I liked everything I saw, then I would apply.

US News lists the top 220 schools, there are THOUSANDS of colleges, so even if a school is ranked #215, that's still pretty decent!

And I agree about waiting a year or two. I'm 2 years out, and if you had asked me 2 years ago if I thought I was ready for grad school, I would have said "Hell yeah I am!". Looking back, I realize that I would have been eaten alive lol. My work is SOOO much tighter now.

Golly gee, I thought the whole idea was to only apply to the top schools, man do I feel dumb. /sarcasm

I got the opposite impression, I see a lot of schools that I didn't even think about when applying.

[littlenova]

I feel like 50% of the people on here just found the top 10 schools and applied to only those, which is a really stupid thing to do.

Lists are great...But, if someone really did go about picking their schools based soley on that list,then that is kind of sad. There are some AMAZING programs that don't rank high at all on that list. I found Maine College of Art to be one of them. When I was in Ireland doing a curatorial study abroad, I met someone that used to teach there and it got me interested in the school. When I checked it out, I found it to be better and way more conceptual than most of the schools I researched in the mid-range (like disappointing Florida State, University of Florida, PAFA, Chapel Hill,etc.) yet they are ranked really low. Mills College is also a fine school ranked quite low.

Here's something else weird...My husband did a portion of his undergrad at Cornell and while we lived on campus I checked out their art department, faculty, used their facilities. I thought it didn't even hold a candle to Syracuse Univ.

And, of course, it obviously changes a bit with your discipline. There is some truth to the puffed reputations of places like SAIC, Yale or even MICA in the top ten...You can throw a coin and anywhere it landed, you'd find a solid department. That could be a huge benefit for someone working across disciplines.

But, again...It is very personal. It really depends on YOUR work. I wouldn't be caught dead applying to MIT but, for folks working in new genres/electronic media---it is an incredible program. The schools I applied to were ranked #4, #5, #81 and #93 respectively. lol. I am probably going to #4, but #93 has got this amazing Bolivian filmmaker that really gets my work on so many levels....You would be surprised if you research a bit.

Edited March 16, 2010 by littlenova

[intelly]

Oh I totally disagree with you about SAIC. I moved to Chicago after finishing my undergrad, and I had every intention of applying to SAIC....until I saw the work that was coming out of it. One of the MFA pieces was three black canvases that said "Location, Location Location" in white letters. I mean, conceptual art isn't really my thing, but I respect good work....if it's actually good.

I also went to a National Portfolio Day that was held there, one of the guys waiting on an interview near me had his work in a cardboard and ducttape homemade portfolio, hadn't showered in days, and looked hungover. I overhead the interviewer asking him about his unprofessional first impression, and he said "yeah...it's just kind of my thing, you know?" . He was an undergrad from SAIC, I really hope he didn't get in anywhere that I might go lol.

I'm sure SAIC has some AMAZING artists coming out of it, but I've also seen way to many pompus hipsters that think they're intitled to fame just because of the name on their degree.

Edited March 16, 2010 by intelly

[littlenova]

SAIC has some AMAZING artists coming out of it, but I've also seen way too many pompus hipsters that think they're intitled to fame just because of the name on their degree.

Pompous hipsters are everywhere, though. Some of my favorite new artists like Carrie Schneider and Deb Sokolow hail from SAIC and they have insanely amazing guest lecturers like Angela Strassheim, David Sedaris, Yeondoo Jung...Maybe I have built it up in my mind like Yale...but, it can't be all bad. I also think it's important to look at someone's entire body of work over just a piece, because it might give more context to what they are doing. Jenny Holtzer made an entire career out of just using words...I mean, right? I can't really comment on the Location, Location, Location thing because I didn't see it, but...

And your description reminds me more of programs like Bard. lol. I love the experimentation that goes on in a program like Bard, but the emperor has no clothes on most of the time---if you get what I'm saying. I felt that way when I lived in Miami...Basel would come to town and you wouldn't believe the SHITE that would get into the high-profile shows. I think my disdain for performance art might have something to do with the all the crappy one woman plays I was subjected to while I was there. [The things I had to endure just to be able to show one of my films...hahahaah]

But, yeah...I dig.

[savantarde]

Pompous hipsters are everywhere, though. Some of my favorite new artists like Carrie Schneider and Deb Sokolow hail from SAIC and they have insanely amazing guest lecturers like Angela Strassheim, David Sedaris, Yeondoo Jung...Maybe I have built it up in my mind like Yale...but, it can't be all bad. I also think it's important to look at someone's entire body of work over just a piece, because it might give more context to what they are doing. Jenny Holtzer made an entire career out of just using words...I mean, right? I can't really comment on the Location, Location, Location thing because I didn't see it, but...

And your description reminds me more of programs like Bard. lol. I love the experimentation that goes on in a program like Bard, but the emperor has no clothes on most of the time---if you get what I'm saying. I felt that way when I lived in Miami...Basel would come to town and you wouldn't believe the SHITE that would get into the high-profile shows. I think my disdain for performance art might have something to do with the all the crappy one woman plays I was subjected to while I was there. [The things I had to endure just to be able to show one of my films...hahahaah]

But, yeah...I dig.

Hey now! Don't be unfair...

It's important to remember that the grad experience is highly subjective. Every program at every school--regardless of their place on the list--has its share of pros and cons.

In the end, it's up to the individual to weigh their options diligently, and to make a decision that best reflects all of their needs and wants.

As far as SAIC goes, I've heard a whole LOT of negative. (Strangely enough, though, it seems to stem mostly from the undergraduate end.) Similarly, however, I've heard just as many "bad things" about other top 10, 20, 30+ schools. Thusly, I've learned not to rely upon word-of-mouth. I can't believe how many rumors fly around on this board about the graduate experience, for instance!

You've got to trust your gut. That is why a visit should never be out of the question. If my October visit to SAIC had corroborated most of what I'd heard from others, I would've decided against going. Conversely, however, I was nothing short of impressed with the faculty, students, and facilities.

That being said, I would also *love* to play Devil's Advocate. My thought regarding the top 10: why not choose to go to a school based on its ratings? If you are intent upon obtaining a degree that, by way of its ties to a renowned institution, might open doors for you that another degree wouldn't, who should call you out on that? Disingenuous? Not hardly.

If you can see your way through the problems that might present themselves, based on your decision, more power to you! I certainly don't take issue with someone else's determination regarding a degree.

Okay. My two cents spent.

[littlenova]

@savantegarde: What was unfair about my post? I was simply explaining to Intelly that you cannot pass judgment on an entire institution based on a few "pompous hipsters", because Intelly is right...you'll find those everywhere. I,mostly, agree with what you said...except for...

1)

My thought regarding the top 10: why not choose to go to a school based on its ratings? If you are intent upon obtaining a degree that, by way of its ties to a renowned institution, might open doors for you that another degree wouldn't, who should call you out on that? Disingenuous? Not hardly.

Ratings alone do not a good program make.

2)

As far as SAIC goes, I've heard a whole LOT of negative.

If this is true...I have never heard of it. They seem to turn out some amazing talent. Didn't you get accepted there? I would go in a heartbeat. This is the first time I have heard anything negative to be honest. Edited March 16, 2010 by littlenova

[savantarde]

@savantegarde: What was unfair about my post? I was simply explaining to Intelly that you cannot pass judgment on an entire institution based on a few "pompous hipsters", because Intelly is right...you'll find those everywhere. I,mostly, agree with what you said...except for...

1) Ratings alone do not a good program make.

2) If this is true...I have never heard of it. They seem to turn out some amazing talent. Didn't you get accepted there? I would go in a heartbeat. This is the first time I have heard anything negative to be honest.

Apologies, as I meant to reply to the posts before yours.

And, you're right--ratings don't make a program. What I was arguing, however, is that there is nothing wrong with making a decision based on this fact alone--it all depends on where you're coming from, what your motives are. In a purely business sense, the name on a degree *will* be advantageous in ways that it wouldn't be for one without said "name." But, your work must be able to convey a sense of competency (one would hope) in order to sustain any level of true success in your chosen field.

[littlenova]

true, true. All true.

My friend came out of the Columbia grad photo program and she told me to take MICA over Maine College of Art because more curators traffic their grad shows/events. She says "names open doors." I happened to love MICA anyway, but you are right...the connections are advantageous.

But, I have to mention those wild cards like Tam Tran who got an undergad journalism degree from Univ of Memphis---never spent a minute in grad school---and now finds herself in the Whitney...at 23 no less. NUTS. It can happen...It is a very subjective thing sometimes. I think she's great, but I found her work lacking maturity. The Whitney likes to do that, though.

[savantarde]

true, true. All true.

My friend came out of the Columbia grad photo program and she told me to take MICA over Maine College of Art because more curators traffic their grad shows/events. She says "names open doors." I happened to love MICA anyway, but you are right...the connections are advantageous.

But, I have to mention those wild cards like Tam Tran who got an undergad journalism degree from Univ of Memphis---never spent a minute in grad school---and now finds herself in the Whitney...at 23 no less. NUTS. It can happen...It is a very subjective thing sometimes. I think she's great, but I found her work lacking maturity. The Whitney likes to do that, though.

Agreed.

Sometimes skill and due diligence don't factor in to the equation. I don't necessarily believe in luck, but that's the best way to describe what happens to some people.

On the flip side, though, I believe that *you* are your best advocate. The single greatest thing someone can learn to do is "market" themselves--whatever that may mean at any given time. You have to be willing to "rub elbows" with lots of different people if you want to make something happen for yourself.

[stofo]

I interviewed at SAIC and I toured the campus a few weeks ago. The facilities are unbelievable. An art school literally attached to the art museum where ferris beulers day off was filmed, a floor of sewing machines, a movie theater on campus with siskels name on it, and a whole bunch of other crap i cant remember right now. I have heard negative things from the undergrad program, it sounds awful to go to a huge undergrad art school where the profs are all nationally/internationally know artists, of course they only care about the mfa candidates. They have very few options for funding, once I actually saw the numbers on paper, $70,000 for saic tuition compared to $30,00 state school tuition, I'm considering maybe not going to saic. I was at a lunch with the fiber department (not my department I aplied to) the current students went around the table and stated what they were working on. They all said almost the same thing, "i'm exploring concepts of self, place, and otherness". That gives me no clue as to what their art looks like. Using large or artsy sounding words does not, in anyway, make you seem smart or more artsy. I was very diappointed with what they said, but it made me realize that saic is looking for one specific type of artist to go to their school.