LOR - How close to be with a professor?

[procrastikant]

I am wondering what level of relationship one needs with a professor to ask for a LOR. I'm a Master's student and I essentially work with 1 professor very closely. I have taken 2 of his classes, he is an adviser to my Master's program, and also serves as my thesis supervisor. He is very supportive and has expressed great confidence in me, so I am very excited about him providing a letter for me. However, I haven't established this kind of relationship with any other professors at my current university.

I'm an interdisciplinary student (PPE program, but I focus on political philosophy), and unfortunately I had quite a few economics course requirements my first year. I know a letter from an economist would be worthless to a philosophy department, so I haven't even bothered with those professors, although I am friendly with some. There is one interdisciplinary philosophy professor that I have taken one course with who I really admire, though I don't know him. I received an A in the class and will take another class with him this Fall. I am thinking of asking him for a LOR but I'm not sure if that would be strange.

The final professor  is someone I actually haven't met yet, but my thesis supervisor has been urging that I have a meeting with him as he is from a great institution and experienced in my topic. I should be meeting with him later this month, and I hope to give him an excerpt of my working thesis to look over later in the fall. I won't ever have had a class with him, but I'm hoping 2-3 meetings with him and a look over my writing as well as raving from his close colleague will allow him to serve as a good writer.

The reason I say all this is because I recently read this from A Splintered Mind:

"If a professor gave you an A (not an A-minus) in an upper-division philosophy course, consider her a candidate to write a letter. You needn't have any special relationship with her, or have visited during office hours, or have taken multiple classes from her -- though all those things can help. Don't be shy about asking, we're used to it!" (http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2007/09/applying-to-philosophy-phd-programs_20.html)

Am I misinterpreting that I need to be chummy with all of my letter writers, or are others asking for LORs from professors whose classes they simply performed well in, and that's it? I feel I've over stressed myself about this one aspect - I almost considered delaying my application a year in order to manufacture some relationships with professors for more LOR options.

I need more coffee.

[Glasperlenspieler]

The downfall of an MA is that two years (or really 1.5 years) is not typically a long enough period of time to build up strong relationships with multiple professors. However, admissions committees are certainly aware of this fact and are unlikely to hold it against you. What you need is philosophers who can speak to your abilities and potential to produce high quality scholarly work. The fact that you're close to one professor is great and that will be a particularly valuable letter. The second professor you mention also seems like a strong candidate for being a good letter writer. Just make sure he knows who you are at the beginning of the semester and try to be an active participant in the class. I would be a little more wary of asking the third professor, as you've never had a class with him. I don't think a few meetings would allow him to evaluate your work and potential as a philosopher to the same degree as someone with whom you've had a seminar. That being said, if he's impressed with your work and you don't have other viable options, it may be worth asking if he'd be willing to write a letter for you.

[syee]

Take a look at Brown's "Application Advice" page here: https://www.brown.edu/academics/philosophy/application-advice

Their advice under LoR isn't bad -- quite understandable -- but still, it makes me cringe a bit; because, well, it seems a bit fake: to intentionally foster some sort of close relationship with professors for a year or so, whom you know you will be very likely to ask for those letters when you apply for PhD.

I'm on the same boat -- sort of, Bachelor in my case. I'm (very) close with my supervisor; she knows me and my work well, and I was in all her classes throughout undergrad; so that's good. I have taken one course with another philosophy professor; he gave me good grades for both of my term papers, but we never really talked and it has been almost a year; still, I think he'll remember me (I came up with my own essay questions and asked him about them -- I think very few, if any, in my class did that), and I'm planning to send him those papers to refresh his memory after I meet with him (soon). I'm still not sure whom I'm going to ask for the final letter, trying to decide between (1) one of my thesis markers, whose class I have never attended to and I don't think she even knows who I am, and (2) yet another philosophy professor, whose Level 2 (out of 3) class I have attended to and did OK in, and with whom I'm currently working as an assistant for a quasi-philosophy course. I'm more inclined towards (2) at this point, since he has a more comprehensive sense of who I am as a person and a bit of knowledge on my philosophical attitude/work.

@Glasperlenspieler: any thoughts?

I don't think you are over-stressing: some say LoRs are even more important than the GRE score, because they are a much better indication of your ability to do well in philosophy. That being said, remember that SoP and writing sample are two equally important components you have full control of! 

[Glasperlenspieler]

13 hours ago, syee said:

Take a look at Brown's "Application Advice" page here: https://www.brown.edu/academics/philosophy/application-advice

Their advice under LoR isn't bad -- quite understandable -- but still, it makes me cringe a bit; because, well, it seems a bit fake: to intentionally foster some sort of close relationship with professors for a year or so, whom you know you will be very likely to ask for those letters when you apply for PhD.

This might be a little overly blunt, but I think that if building relationships with professors feels cringey, then you've got your priorities turned around. If philosophy is something you really want to spend the rest of your life doing (and applying for graduate school suggests that it is), then it would be strange if your engagement with philosophical questions and issues ends when you walk out of the classroom. Talking to professors after class and during office hours is a chance to think more deeply about the questions that interest you and get another perspective on these issues from people who have spent more time thinking about them then you have. So, yes, if you are going to office hours merely with the intention of securing a good letter of recommendation, then I think that is a little fake. But if that's the only reason you're speaking to professors, I  think that suggests a greater occupation with the idea of graduate school than the actual study of philosophy.

13 hours ago, syee said:

 I'm on the same boat -- sort of, Bachelor in my case. I'm (very) close with my supervisor; she knows me and my work well, and I was in all her classes throughout undergrad; so that's good. I have taken one course with another philosophy professor; he gave me good grades for both of my term papers, but we never really talked and it has been almost a year; still, I think he'll remember me (I came up with my own essay questions and asked him about them -- I think very few, if any, in my class did that), and I'm planning to send him those papers to refresh his memory after I meet with him (soon). I'm still not sure whom I'm going to ask for the final letter, trying to decide between (1) one of my thesis markers, whose class I have never attended to and I don't think she even knows who I am, and (2) yet another philosophy professor, whose Level 2 (out of 3) class I have attended to and did OK in, and with whom I'm currently working as an assistant for a quasi-philosophy course. I'm more inclined towards (2) at this point, since he has a more comprehensive sense of who I am as a person and a bit of knowledge on my philosophical attitude/work.

The big question here is what does "OK" mean. You probably don't want someone who has doubts about your philosophical capabilities writing you a letter of recommendation.

13 hours ago, syee said:

I don't think you are over-stressing: some say LoRs are even more important than the GRE score, because they are a much better indication of your ability to do well in philosophy. That being said, remember that SoP and writing sample are two equally important components you have full control of! 

I'd be curious to hear others thoughts on this, but I tend to disagree. I suspect that a bad or lukewarm letter is very bad for your application but that three strong letters is more or less neutral. I think the one time a letter of recommendation can provide a real boost is if it's a strong letter by a big name or by someone whom the admissions committee knows personally. Don't underestimate the latter point though. My anecdotal evidence suggests it can play a big role. 

[syee]

10 hours ago, Glasperlenspieler said:

Talking to professors after class and during office hours is a chance to think more deeply about the questions that interest you and get another perspective on these issues from people who have spent more time thinking about them then you have. So, yes, if you are going to office hours merely with the intention of securing a good letter of recommendation, then I think that is a little fake

At the time of writing my previous post I was thinking more about the latter scenario. The tone on Brown’s page seems to imply this, and I thought, OK, sounds a bit calculative. Anyway, I definitely agree with you on this, and I’ve been there: talking to professors outside the classroom, hoping to have conversations with those who have more experience in the field and know more than me. During those times I didn’t really know what philosophy is, and the idea of pursuing it further never crossed my mind. All I wanted to do was to, as you said, think more deeply about the issues that have a grip on me, and my good relationship with my supervisor arises from the thinking and the talking throughout undergrad. By “unintentional” I’m thinking along these lines.

10 hours ago, Glasperlenspieler said:

The big question here is what does "OK" mean. 

A low A+ (86-100)? Sorry, Australia has a different grading system. My final grade in that course was 88, and I got 88 for my paper. He also asked me whether I wanted to pursue philosophy further at the time.

10 hours ago, Glasperlenspieler said:

I suspect that a bad or lukewarm letter is very bad for your application but that three strong letters is more or less neutral. I think the one time a letter of recommendation can provide a real boost is if it's a strong letter by a big name or by someone whom the admissions committee knows personally.

Interesting. Lukewarm, maybe, if a professor doesn’t know one and one’s work that well. But I would rather not think that a professor will write a bad letter. Surely he/she knows how important the letter is and won’t “screw it up,” so to speak? The big-name-personal-relations possibility you mentioned is quite likely — letters written by them could carry a heavier weight — though I must admit that I’m so far off the U.S. philosophy scene that I can barely grasp what this means in my case.

Edited August 15, 2018 by syee

[Gnothi_Seauton]

If you are planning to continue with PPE, I actually think a letter from an economist might be a help, at least at Ph.D. programs that take PPE seriously.  Especially if the economist in question works on some area of economics related to PPE (like game theory) and can attest to your ability in that area.  

[dgswaim]

It might be worth considering getting one of your letters from an undergrad prof, if you have one that will write an especially strong letter. When I applied to PhD programs, I got two letters from MA profs, and one from my undergraduate advisor.