Transferability of biology research experience

[grayjay]

I just graduated from undergrad this past May, with majors in biology and psychology. I worked in a lab at my university's medical school for all 4 years; however, the lab was a lot of benchwork and pipetting. I'm now doing a gap year (or two) and working in a psych lab for the first time--if I'm lucky, hopefully I'll be able to get a psych publication under my belt. I also just spent the summer volunteering in the psych dept of a hospital. 

If I apply to clinical psych PhD programs (still on the fence between PhD and MD), will my 4 years of bio research go totally to waste? I know the two fields have very different research approaches but will my hard-earned research experience transfer in any way or show any skills that could make me desirable to a clin psy PhD program? How much more psych research would I need to be a viable applicant? I did very well in my psych undergrad classes but I know that's not the bottom line.

Thanks in advance.

[bubble_psych]

The 4 years of bio experience will not go to waste. In your SOP you can talk about it in the context of the skills you've built as a researcher. For example how the experience has lead to growth in doing research more independently (have you tested hypotheses, used critical thinking, digested the literature, conducted analyses and presentations?) Since these are all transferable skills needed to be a graduate student in clinical psych.

For your other question on how long to work in a psych lab, it really depends more so on your productivity. So that is more dependent on your PI, what opportunities you have, and how long it takes to get them done.

[PsycUndergrad]

Your bio research definitely won’t go to waste! Like the previous poster said, you can discuss the skills that you learned by doing research, which are really more important than the topic. The fact that you have publications shows that you know how to do research. Also, your bio research might be applicable to certain areas of psychology, such as psychoneuroimmunology, health psychology, etc. I know many people in clinical programs doing research where biology experience would be relevant. 

There’s no set amount of psych research required to be competitive. I would guess at least a year to show that you’re committed to psych, and to give you some time to hopefully get some posters. 

[grayjay]

Thanks for your responses! They were very encouraging. I just started in a lab (literally just started, haven't done anything yet and still getting trained) where I will be conducting phone interviews with participants, shadowing counseling sessions, and working on a manuscript. The work seems really interesting and I think I will enjoy it. I considered applying for Fall 2019 but realized that I probably couldn't get my GREs and rec letters and statements together in time for this December... it just wouldn't be enough time for me to build up enough work to talk about in interviews and enough of a rapport with my PI to ask for a letter... I am a little disappointed about having to wait another year but I'm hoping it will be for the best.

I am on the fence between applying to PhD vs. applying to MD and pursuing a career in psychiatry. I am very clear on the differences and similarities between the two, so any other insight would be so appreciated. My main issue is that I am really into drugs and meds and I would have a hard time letting that go if I were to go into a PhD. But I realize that there are research topics in psychopharmacology that I could pursue with the PhD, and the job flexibility is attractive to me (professor, practice, lots of options it seems). My background has pretty much set me up for applying MD, apart from not having taken the MCATs yet. Wonder if anyone else had to make this decision?

[PsycUndergrad]

33 minutes ago, grayjay said:

Thanks for your responses! They were very encouraging. I just started in a lab (literally just started, haven't done anything yet and still getting trained) where I will be conducting phone interviews with participants, shadowing counseling sessions, and working on a manuscript. The work seems really interesting and I think I will enjoy it. I considered applying for Fall 2019 but realized that I probably couldn't get my GREs and rec letters and statements together in time for this December... it just wouldn't be enough time for me to build up enough work to talk about in interviews and enough of a rapport with my PI to ask for a letter... I am a little disappointed about having to wait another year but I'm hoping it will be for the best.

I am on the fence between applying to PhD vs. applying to MD and pursuing a career in psychiatry. I am very clear on the differences and similarities between the two, so any other insight would be so appreciated. My main issue is that I am really into drugs and meds and I would have a hard time letting that go if I were to go into a PhD. But I realize that there are research topics in psychopharmacology that I could pursue with the PhD, and the job flexibility is attractive to me (professor, practice, lots of options it seems). My background has pretty much set me up for applying MD, apart from not having taken the MCATs yet. Wonder if anyone else had to make this decision?

I wanted to go to med school at first. 

I chose to do a PhD instead for a few reasons. Mainly, I wasn’t that interested in prescribing meds and really wanted to do psychological assessment. I think I’d struggle to get through med school because I’m only interested in a few areas of medicine, and I would miss the research component of grad school. I also like my sleep schedule so I wouldn’t be able to handle night shifts or working days on end haha 

You should really consider the financial aspect. Obviously you’ll have far less debt coming from a PhD program than MD, but you’ll also make much less. If I was more into meds/psychopharmacology, the higher salary would very appealing. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by PsycUndergrad

[grayjay]

Thanks for your perspective @PsycUndergrad. I am having a really difficult time with this decision. I used to be really interested in many areas of medicine, but as time went on, I became less and less so. But I wonder if it would be worth it to make it to psychiatry in the end, and yes you do mention a good point about the salary.

On top of everything I mentioned, I'm not super confident with my ability to get into a good MD school. My undergrad GPA is around a 3.5, and hopefully my current 1-year master's can help a little if I do well (I know they may not take master's grades into account numerically,  but hopefully an upward trend would at least create a good impression?). I see that you're in Canada. I'm a Canadian citizen who just finished undergrad internationally. In a real pickle because I can't meet the Canadian med school high GPA cutoffs, but my citizenship will work against me in the US where I might have a higher chance with being viewed as more "well-rounded."

Anyways. I wonder if with more psych research I will have a better chance at PhD compared to MD. At this point, I know both are super crazy hard though.

[Executive-D]

What patient populations are you most interested in working with @grayjay? While there is overlap in the populations both professions treat, psychiatrists will be heavily called upon to care for individuals with severe and persistent mental illness, such as individuals with psychosis, mania, major depressive disorder, etc. Psychologists can work with these populations, but inevitably an initial pharmacological or other medical intervention like ECT will be needed, implemented and managed by a psychiatrist. 

There is also the legal aspect of psychiatry - they are the ones responsible for the overwhelming majority of decisions involving committing patients to involuntary status in the hospital or deeming them incapable with respect to treatment or other decisions (beyond the initial holds/inquiries made by other professionals, e.g. psychologists, GP's, ER docs). Again, psychologists have a small role here (especially neuropsych with regards to capacity assessments) but usually a psychiatrist or other physician is legally responsible for making the finding, and defending it in court if need be.

[grayjay]

Thanks for your extra info. All the stuff you mentioned about the legal aspect sounds really interesting to me, actually. A lingering question that I do still have about psychiatrists vs. clin psychologists is the patient follow-up. Which tend to start out with a patient and stick with them long-term through to the "end"? I would be really interested in following through with cases and seeing progress over time. I worry that psychiatry is mainly appointments for med tune-ups without a deep connection/ interaction with the patient beyond their biological needs.

As for populations, I am interested in all types of disorders really, perhaps with a bias towards mood, and would be interested in more severe cases. I am perhaps more drawn to adults than children. What I like about clin psy though is the opportunity to work in lots of different settings, i.e. prisons or forensic departments really appeal to me as well (do psychiatrists get these opportunities too?) or even non-practice settings such as think tanks and policy.

P.S. I also love substance abuse topics

Edited September 5, 2018 by grayjay

[Executive-D]

So in Ontario I think both professions will want to follow-up on their patients long-term. But psychology is not covered by public health insurance. Patients have to pay except for certain situations where it is covered (e.g. hospital setting, family health team with funding for allied health practitioners). I’ve definitely heard of a minority breed of psychiatrists who consider themselves specialists that only focus on psychopharmacology, but most see the patient as more than just a biological problem and develop incredible therapeutic relationships with them (as do psychologists). In Ontario and probably most of Canada, psychiatrists are responsible for caring for the most severely ill individuals (who often have low SES, so no money to pay a psychologist especially not long-term), which often involves a need for medications, so yes this is a huge part of their work. Therapy done by a psychiatrist might involve building trust and insight so a patient sees the need to treat their symptoms. Arguably both professions are also interested in weening their patients off treatment whenever possible, like if a person becomes stable without an antipsychotic (it can happen) or a psychologist has successfully treated someone with OCD and now it is time for them to be independent. 

Psychologists are definitely the profession of choice for prison settings. I’ve met one who loves her job. In a past role on a hospital psychiatric unit, I would periodically see prisoners admitted for psychiatric care (in a hospital but accompanied by correctional guards). In other words they needed to be admitted in hospital to see a psychiatrist. However the forensic setting that sees many psychiatrists is the “forensic psychiatry” units attached to specialized hospitals that assess and rehabilitate offenders deemed not criminally responsible (NCR) on account of a mental disorder. There are psychologists on these treatment teams as well. These offenders are often supervised for many years after being released and are mandated to meet with their psychiatrist.

[grayjay]

I see. Thanks for all the info.

What are people's thoughts on applying to both MD and PhD at the same time? (Given that I will not consider MD/PhD, and that I would be genuinely happy in either). I've come across some people who are extremely opposed to it, and others who see it as do-able.

[PsycUndergrad]

It’s too bad you don’t meet the (ridiculous) Canadian med school GPA. If you go with PhD, are you planning on applying to the US or Canada? In Canada, a lot of schools require at least A- in your last two years, so your GPA could be an issue there as well. I do know people who have been accepted with similar GPA, though, because they had a lot of relevant research and solid GRE scores.

5 hours ago, grayjay said:

I see. Thanks for all the info.

What are people's thoughts on applying to both MD and PhD at the same time? (Given that I will not consider MD/PhD, and that I would be genuinely happy in either). I've come across some people who are extremely opposed to it, and others who see it as do-able.

I don’t really think it’s a problem, but I do think it will be a huge time commitment and take a lot of work. The application process is hard and expensive, and applying to both will be difficult. But if you get started very early it’s probably doable. However, if you apply to any Canadian med schools and happen to get accepted to a PhD program, the deadline to accept/reject your offer will very likely be before you hear back from med schools.

[grayjay]

I was thinking of applying to US med schools and Canadian PhDs. My GPA from the last 2 years of undergrad comes out to a 3.75. My current gap-year master's program also calculates grades but I'm guessing those may not factor in too much into the decision? But good grades will hopefully at least give a good impression.

As for the process... I was thinking of taking the general GRE this November, MCAT in March/April, retake MCAT in July/August if necessary, and taking the psych subject GRE in Sept/Oct, while doing med school apps over the summer and grad school apps in the fall.

Right now I just can't figure out which I have a better shot at (US MD vs. Canadian PhD. I suppose I could apply to some US PhD's too if citizenship vs funding isn't too much of an issue). I definitely do not see myself having much of a chance at any Canadian med school at this point. 

[Executive-D]

If you like both career options then go for it! I applied to both, got offered the PhD about 2.5 months ahead of MD. I accepted the PhD then reneged my acceptance when the MD offer came. You are allowed to do this given it is not your fault both programs have incompatible deadlines. My PhD supervisor was aware and completely ok with me deciding to do either.