How important is the "name" when applying for jobs?

[Postbib Yeshuist]

I'm still struggling with my decision, since Iliff is going to be a bit of a financial burden (tuition, but no stipend). I'm tempted to wait until next year and try again at my top schools, but there's also the realization tht next year will be just as competitive as this year was. So, if I accept Iliff, I wind up going to my third choice and the weakest reputation of the ones to which I applied. That being said, I expect to put out some solid work, perhaps being published pre-dissertation as well presenting at AAR (hopefully more than once). Do those kind of achievements count for more than the school name? Or is it still "He's not from x school, so we're not even going to bother looking at his app." I know this is a tough question to answer, so conjecture is more than welcome.

PS I'm not really aiming for a job at a Tier 1 institution. Teaching World Religions at a state university will be fine with me.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Postbib Yeshuist

[JustChill]

There are plenty of Tier 1 state schools, bud.

[Postbib Yeshuist]

There are plenty of Tier 1 state schools, bud.

True, but I'm thinking of the state universities that are NOT Tier 1, of which there are many.

[lovethequestions]

The father of a friend of mine, who teaches in academia, has said that in general (unless you are truly a wheel-inventor) it's almost impossible to get hired at an institution with a name that's more "prestigious" than the one where you earned your dissertation. So, if you do your Ph.D at a second-tier school, your job prospects are largely limited to second-and third-tier schools. From a third-tier school, you're competitive at third-tier and below, etc.

There are exceptions to this rule, of course--but the only recent one I can think of was in an instance where the applicant had written what his advisor apparently called "the best dissertation he'd ever supervised." Said advisor is probably the top scholar in the U.S. for his subfield and has been teaching for over 30 years.

So...yeah. I'm not endorsing this situation, btw. I can think of many reasons why this kind of attitude would make me less likely to want to teach at a so-called first tier school. But, well, there's a lot about academia today that I don't particularly care for.

[LateAntique]

A professor friend at Duke told me when they hire someone, they look through the stack of applications and say, "He is a Yale-trained..." "She is from Harvard..." Names matter not just because of the school, but because those schools attract big name scholars who consistently produce good students who later go on to become good scholars.

[thekidisalright]

I'm still struggling with my decision, since Iliff is going to be a bit of a financial burden (tuition, but no stipend). I'm tempted to wait until next year and try again at my top schools, but there's also the realization tht next year will be just as competitive as this year was. So, if I accept Iliff, I wind up going to my third choice and the weakest reputation of the ones to which I applied. That being said, I expect to put out some solid work, perhaps being published pre-dissertation as well presenting at AAR (hopefully more than once). Do those kind of achievements count for more than the school name? Or is it still "He's not from x school, so we're not even going to bother looking at his app." I know this is a tough question to answer, so conjecture is more than welcome.

PS I'm not really aiming for a job at a Tier 1 institution. Teaching World Religions at a state university will be fine with me.

Also, keep in mind that students at tier one institutions will also be publishing and presenting at AAR (they may even be required--or all but required--to do so as part of their program). It's a bit more difficult to stand out. Like lovethequestions said, one would need to invent the wheel.

Honestly, the best information will be the most specific information. What do you mean by non tier one state schools? Look at a few and see where their professors come from. Check out Iliff's placement record for the past 20 years.

Good luck in your decision making process. I am sure it is agony!

[peppermint.beatnik]

A professor friend at Duke told me when they hire someone, they look through the stack of applications and say, "He is a Yale-trained..." "She is from Harvard..." Names matter not just because of the school, but because those schools attract big name scholars who consistently produce good students who later go on to become good scholars.

I was on a hiring committee as a graduate representative. The committee categorized like this in a methodological sense, not based quality of education or research production. The "name" only went so far . . . some "names" are lacking in other areas.

[Postbib Yeshuist]

Thanks for the comments all.

Eskidd, I can't really give more information since it's a bit of an "out there" concept in my mind as well. I'm talking about 5 years from now, so I can't be much more specific than the sense that accepting Iliff could potentially limit me in the future. That being said, I just looked into the likelihood of selling our house and it may be out for financial reasons anyway. The reality of trying to sell a house within 4 months to avoid paying rent and a house payment while going to a school with no stipend just hit home. The economy may influence my decision as much as anything. Sometimes, having a secure job and a house can be its own bit of a curse (though I'm far more thankful than I am disappointed, to be sure )

[johndiligent]

If I were you, honestly, I'd apply again next year (possibly to more schools if it's feasible). I read your other post concerning Iliff's offer and the fact that it seriously limits the amount of income you could ever have relative to your fees seems ridiculous to me, and only all the more so if you have concerns about the program limiting you in the future. It's not a great offer, and I'm sure you could do better next year. It's a hard call to make, but I think you should definitely give it another go.

[Postbib Yeshuist]

I actually got an offer today from my #1 pick (where I was wait-listed). If I have it pegged right, I'll get 100% tuition and $16k stipend. Need to wait on letter to be sure, but I'm re-excited.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Postbib Yeshuist

[jacib]

I actually got an offer today from my #1 pick (where I was wait-listed). If I have it pegged right, I'll get 100% tuition and $16k stipend. Need to wait on letter to be sure, but I'm re-excited.

Congrats on SMU!

I would also like to say I have both heard the "You don't move up tiers in the job market from your PhD school" but I've also hear some (rare) exceptions to that dictum. Usually there was some compelling personal narrative involved, or someone who just saw a problem in an entirely different way. Definitely check placement records of schools (I'd go with the past 5-10 years, rather than 20) and also consider the effects that any potential adviser might have. For example, someone graduating from CUNY in Anthropology after working closely with Talal Asad would have a different set of job prospects than other CUNY Anthro graduates. Obviously, name only helps get your foot in the door.

The other thing is start getting yourself marketable skills early on. If teaching World Religions is what see yourself doing, make sure to teach a similar class as a TA. That's the advice that has stuck with me from graduate students I've met: don't just do a "follow your bliss" approach, but to a certain extent think "How can I make my interests and skills marketable to potential employers?" Obviously publishing and presenting earlier is important for a lot of schools, but a lot of schools care very much about teaching as well. I don't know enough about the secondary campus state schools you're talking about to say how they hire people, but once enrolled, you could probably talk to people and find out and tailor your CV to be more appealing. Do things like keep all the syllabuses of courses you taught and things like that. Basically, my friends in graduate school (in Religion), some of them really regret some of the strategic choices they made. I know a few PhDs from Chicago who have had very hard times finding jobs (one is teaching at a Community College) and I have heard of other people getting great placements out of schools ranked lower than Chicago; part of that has to do with Chicago's overproduction of PhDs, but a lot of that also has to do with individual choices (and willingness to move anywhere in the country for work).

[Postbib Yeshuist]

some of them really regret some of the strategic choices they made.

Thanks for the advice. Do you mind sharing some of those "strategic choices?" I assume your simply talking about the things you mentioned to keep an eye out for, but specific examples are always welcome. Obviously, names and institutions aren't important, but "she taught French when she was working on an Anthro PhD" would help