Number of classes and/or Pass/No Pass

[notlightweneedbutfire]

Hello! I should concede that I am new in posting here, but have been lurking around on GradCafe for some time... anyway, I realize that this forum is currently full of people concerned over Fall 2010, but I wanted to ask I question that you may or may not have experience with:

I am applying for Fall 2011 in History, specifically nineteenth century and the Civil War (yes, starting early!) and consider myself a fairly strong applicant with a single exception. I have had to work substantially throughout college and have always placed a great deal of emphasis on outside primary source research, internships, and extra-curriculars. In order to prevent myself from going utterly insane, then, I have typically taken 3 academic classes a semester (the norm at my school is 4), and then taking a 1 - 2 unit Pass/No Pass course (typically on something like gardening, or outdoor restoration, which I consider my non-academic hobbies) or getting Pass/No Pass credit for independent research. (These sorts of things are compulsory Pass/No Pass... would have taken them for a letter if I could.) I have a 3.9/4.0 GPA, really good extra-currics and 20 hours of outside research per week since my sophomore year, 4 unpaid internships I've done during school... in ANY CASE, my question is this: will not taking a necessarily full courseload each semester hurt my grad school application? I've done it in order to balance the rest of my life out participate thoroughly in my community/school.

What do you think? Sorry for this incredibly long-winded inquiry, but it's been driving me utterly mad these past few weeks.

Thanks a bunch, y'all!

Edited March 23, 2010 by notlightweneedbutfire

[TMP]

OP, what did your professors have to say with you taking only 3 classes each semester in favor of doing ECs, both related and unrelated? And you don't have financial hardship (as it doesn't seem to suggest it in your post) that you absolutely have to work to earn money for school.

Grad schools don't care about unrelated ECs and internships.

[notlightweneedbutfire]

OP, what did your professors have to say with you taking only 3 classes each semester in favor of doing ECs, both related and unrelated? And you don't have financial hardship (as it doesn't seem to suggest it in your post) that you absolutely have to work to earn money for school.

Grad schools don't care about unrelated ECs and internships.

My profs haven't really had much to say about it -- I'm still taking enough to be full-enrollment, so it hasn't come up. (My dept. adviser, in fact, usually advises people to take less in favor of more classes.) Every single one of my ECs (except for the restoration/wildlife stuff I mentioned) and internships have been related to my field.

[StrangeLight]

they won't care about a less than full courseload if they see you were busy with research. if your internships were at museums or historical societies or something, then programs that value public history (surprisingly, not that many do) will find that important. others may not.

if most of your internships and ECs were somehow historical in nature, then that won't hurt you any. if the connection to historical/archival/research work is less obvious, some programs may wonder about your dedication to academic work. they'll certainly see the commitment to your topic of interest, but grad school is rigorous. if you thought a full courseload at the undergraduate level was going to make you lose it, then the grad courseload definitely will. you're looking at 60-hr work weeks for a history degree (they're heavy on reading, moreso than other disciplines, and that just takes time to do properly). your outside life will rapidly evaporate. do you want that? can you handle it? you may need to convince potential schools of that in your SOP.

[notlightweneedbutfire]

they won't care about a less than full courseload if they see you were busy with research. if your internships were at museums or historical societies or something, then programs that value public history (surprisingly, not that many do) will find that important. others may not.

if most of your internships and ECs were somehow historical in nature, then that won't hurt you any. if the connection to historical/archival/research work is less obvious, some programs may wonder about your dedication to academic work. they'll certainly see the commitment to your topic of interest, but grad school is rigorous. if you thought a full courseload at the undergraduate level was going to make you lose it, then the grad courseload definitely will. you're looking at 60-hr work weeks for a history degree (they're heavy on reading, moreso than other disciplines, and that just takes time to do properly). your outside life will rapidly evaporate. do you want that? can you handle it? you may need to convince potential schools of that in your SOP.

Thanks for the tips! I've worked at museum and historical societies, but was doing pretty intensive research there... but more than that, I've had a steady job researching since my sophomore year, which takes up a really good chunk of my time -- and which I've committed a lot of time too because I like doing research! Again, thanks; I have, in some cases, taken fewer classes in order to do more research in others (ie., independent studies and optional research seminars)... and hoped this would show commitment to primary source work rather than make me appear incompetent or unable to handle to coursework of graduate school.

[StrangeLight]

if you have a ton of research experience, this will look good. i'd still be sure to mention it explicitly, but not necessarily at length, in your SOP.

i will stress, though... at the MA level, you are doing a lot of coursework and it's a struggle to find time to get to your own research, which can be very frustrating. prepare yourself for at least 2 years of very intensive coursework. maintaining sanity can be difficult even for those that love seminars and secondary readings.

[TMP]

StrangeLight makes many good points.

The kind of profile you're looking to build is almost similar to mine now that you've explained your situation more. I did internships at internationally known museums- one for 2 summers and then another for the spring semester/summer while I was abroad. As a result- A) It looks FANTASTIC when I put it all in my CV and I've got killer research skills that have my advisers and fellow grad students scratching their heads how I've come up with Y and Z in addition to X that they knew I would find. My advisers now want me to publish a portion of my MA thesis for its content and my findings even though the writing still needs to be refined.

But question is... what is it that you want to do with your PhD, given the kind of CV you're building?

I will tell you that it all looks truly great on a CV as professors in my FIRST round of PhD apps said it was the biggest jewel of my application package. But it's not enough to make up for some of other deficiencies that I had as I was planning on going straight from UG to PhD. Nevertheless, it didn't merit enough for me to be considered seriously. Some actually said to me that because I did so much work at museums, why don't I just forget about the PhD and get a MA in public history? Ouch. Yes, academics will say that. Of course, I never applied to this school again.

Second round, with 3 working languages, a MA with decent GPA, very compelling thesis topic, and sharper research skills, well, it's in progress, let me put it this way. My MA coursework and thesis have proven that I am a worthy enough to be an academic, not just someone interested in doing public history. I've only had one academic tell me that it all still looks like I'm more interested in working the industry rather than the academia and I'd be taking a spot away from someone who really wants to be a professor and needs this institution's degree to get an academic job. (Thankfully I've been rejected by this particular program)

I think it's a question of what your intentions really are. I am finding that schools who have connections to the museums that I've worked at are much more accepting of my path and CV and are likely to admit/waitlist me than those who are intent on producing PhDs strictly for academia. Individual professors will admire you but the entire adcom will not necessarily so unless they do want to produce PhDs and place them in wherever they can find jobs. THOSE are the programs you want to apply to where your CV and experience will be seriously considered as part of who you are. Also departments that have a relationship with a public history program.

Most of the top 10-15 programs are professor-producing machines. If you feel that one is a great fit for your interests, read their mission statement and question the DGS if such experiences like yours will be considered. If it doesn't look like the program is interested in helping grads get jobs outside the academia, scratch it off your list.

Professors will indeed take notice of your passion for research but as StrangeLight points out, during your MA coursework, you will not have time to do any research except for your seminar papers. You do your research over breaks. So, as I've said, you need to show that you are capable of doing the coursework and putting it first. Can you do that? If you take relevant courses, you will definitely find a way to connect your seminar paper topic to your research.

Bottom line: Look at your research internships and independent studies as opportunities to practice and enhance your research skills, not to improve your CV. They neither hurt or help your way into PhD. An original thesis will.

[notlightweneedbutfire]

StrangeLight makes many good points.

The kind of profile you're looking to build is almost similar to mine now that you've explained your situation more. I did internships at internationally known museums- one for 2 summers and then another for the spring semester/summer while I was abroad. As a result- A) It looks FANTASTIC when I put it all in my CV and I've got killer research skills that have my advisers and fellow grad students scratching their heads how I've come up with Y and Z in addition to X that they knew I would find. My advisers now want me to publish a portion of my MA thesis for its content and my findings even though the writing still needs to be refined.

But question is... what is it that you want to do with your PhD, given the kind of CV you're building?

I will tell you that it all looks truly great on a CV as professors in my FIRST round of PhD apps said it was the biggest jewel of my application package. But it's not enough to make up for some of other deficiencies that I had as I was planning on going straight from UG to PhD. Nevertheless, it didn't merit enough for me to be considered seriously. Some actually said to me that because I did so much work at museums, why don't I just forget about the PhD and get a MA in public history? Ouch. Yes, academics will say that. Of course, I never applied to this school again.

Second round, with 3 working languages, a MA with decent GPA, very compelling thesis topic, and sharper research skills, well, it's in progress, let me put it this way. My MA coursework and thesis have proven that I am a worthy enough to be an academic, not just someone interested in doing public history. I've only had one academic tell me that it all still looks like I'm more interested in working the industry rather than the academia and I'd be taking a spot away from someone who really wants to be a professor and needs this institution's degree to get an academic job. (Thankfully I've been rejected by this particular program)

I think it's a question of what your intentions really are. I am finding that schools who have connections to the museums that I've worked at are much more accepting of my path and CV and are likely to admit/waitlist me than those who are intent on producing PhDs strictly for academia. Individual professors will admire you but the entire adcom will not necessarily so unless they do want to produce PhDs and place them in wherever they can find jobs. THOSE are the programs you want to apply to where your CV and experience will be seriously considered as part of who you are. Also departments that have a relationship with a public history program.

Most of the top 10-15 programs are professor-producing machines. If you feel that one is a great fit for your interests, read their mission statement and question the DGS if such experiences like yours will be considered. If it doesn't look like the program is interested in helping grads get jobs outside the academia, scratch it off your list.

Professors will indeed take notice of your passion for research but as StrangeLight points out, during your MA coursework, you will not have time to do any research except for your seminar papers. You do your research over breaks. So, as I've said, you need to show that you are capable of doing the coursework and putting it first. Can you do that? If you take relevant courses, you will definitely find a way to connect your seminar paper topic to your research.

Bottom line: Look at your research internships and independent studies as opportunities to practice and enhance your research skills, not to improve your CV. They neither hurt or help your way into PhD. An original thesis will.

Thanks for the words of advice, I appreciate it! It's good to know the responses you received to your work in historical societies. My focus is memory/how people have and do remember American history, so my work in historical societies has been to, well, delve into that first-hand! Hopefully if I flush this out in my SOP, they'll understand I don't want to work in public history.