my supervisor led me to the pit of depression

[oceans11]

hello everyone.

I am glad to find this grad school specific forum. I am from a developing country who was lucky to obtain a master's scholarship in one of the developed countries. My project experience with a well-known supervisor led me nowhere but to frustrations and depression. Currently, I am in my last semester and currently doing my project from a research institution not part of the institution partners of my university. Although there was a safety net emplaced, a signed agreement between my coordinator and this research institution, most of the points pointed out by my university were not met. This was how my mental health deteriorates and how I am looking forward to going back home and talk to an expert.

First, months before starting this project I had a video call meeting with my supervisor and agreed on the topic I will be working on. Considering that season is a factor for the main topic, we both agreed to have a small topic to be busy with while waiting for summer. However, when I had arrived it seems it was made clear to me that I will not be working on that main topic and will be focusing on the small topic instead. Which was already a sign for me to inform my university immediately but I did not since I was too confident that this should not take long and when summer comes, I will be doing on the agreed main topic. But setbacks after setbacks, this small topic is still not done.

Second, one of the points in the agreement between this supervisor and my university was there should only be a maximum of two student advisees. In case there was more, she was supposed to assign a co-supervisor (atleast in the final year of PhD). During our video call meeting, I knew that there will also be one master's student and a PhD student who will also be working with him. However, I didn't know that there was more of us (7 ms and several phds) and I realize quickly that I might not be getting the amount of supervision I needed. In the first few weeks, I wanted to finalize the experimental designs for my project and my timeline. I was quickly told, to quote "don't be too serious... we take things easy here... you will have enough time" which I didn't take as a caution.

Third and the one which frustrated me the most, there was no proper introduction of the people in the research group. No introductions, no meetings, nothing. We have a small laboratory for our experiments and the other student was able to set up ahead of me. I initially propose to do field work first while someone is still using our lab but he insisted that i should work on my lab experiment first which i eventually agreed. In an email, I and the other student was told to share the lab but this was not followed. I updated her regularly that I am not able to conduct my own experiments considering she approved a big experimental design for the other student, which takes half of my space. She ignored all my updates and grew frustrated. After almost two months and she didn't receive any data from me, she asked what was wrong and I reminded her of my previous updates. And even I told the other student, she has to share the space she is agressive claiming that our adviser knows she has a big experimental design. this adviser kept pushing me to fight and be aggressive to the other student for my right to conduct an experiment, which i can't really take. she knows the problem months ago and she did nothing. After two months, she met me and the other student and settled the problem. If she could have just done this earlier life could have been easier.

Lastly, during our meetings she constantly mocks the other students who made a mistake and i quote "i can't comprehend why this student does not know about this considering he is a master level". It left me wondering, it is very likely she is also doing this to me. Her previous student also complained as she approves without bothering to thoroughly check the manuscript. This student submitted to a reputable journal without her consent and she had gone mad, she checked the stats and find wrong analysis and interpretation.

These experiences especially the lack of interest and support on my project led me to depression. Now, I am writing my manuscript and hoping my university will still consider this. Although i know that this is not the quality i expected. This also discourages me in pursuing academia. If she is uninterested with my topic, then she should have told me earlier. If she does not have time, then she should have assigned me to one of her phd students or postdocs. Fighting depression while writing is very hard especially when you try to open up your problem and they can not understand your mental health condition.

Did you encounter problems with your supervisor? How did you deal with it and did it affect your mental health? Laslty, how did you recover from it?

[dr. t]

For me, a large aspect of my mental health is proactively identifying and addressing the things I can control, even if they're uncomfortable. Graduate school is, at its core, self directed.

A lot of what you've said here sounds like you need to acknowledge your own agency in this situation. Your PI gave you a smaller project to work on as a learning experience before assigning you a larger one, a project which you did not complete because you were unwilling to follow her advice and confront the student monopolizing the lab. You haven't done what she asked, and therefore she has not trusted you with the larger project. Once it became clear you were unable to help yourself in the way she expected of you, she stepped in. That's a reasonable sequence of events. Similarly, submitting an article with data from someone else's lab without their consent is a fairly large faux pas in many fields, and I would not be surprised if this angered the PI.

If you want to get something out of this experience, and if you want to finish the degree, I would suggest that you set get a grasp of the tasks you have in front of you and the precise steps you need to take to complete them. This is not usually an adviser's responsibility, though they may help with the process. 

Good luck.

[Hope.for.the.best]

On 6/20/2019 at 11:52 PM, oceans11 said:

Did you encounter problems with your supervisor? How did you deal with it and did it affect your mental health? Laslty, how did you recover from it?

I am sorry to hear what you are going through. Having problems with supervisor at grad school is more often than you think. So you are not alone, even though you feel that way. I too had a difficult time with my PhD supervisors. Feel free to read my previous posts. 

It sounds like your supervisor does not listen to students' concerns and offer them appropriate support.
It is also bad for her to keep shaming her students for not knowing something. Nobody knows everything. If it is something essential for a student to know but he/she doesn't know, she can simply ask him/her to look that up.
What worry me is that she does not check a manuscript thoroughly and let students send it out (and then blames later if something goes wrong). Don't get me wrong, it is every author's responsibility to ensure the accuracy of a manuscript. However, given she is a supervisor who has more experience and leads the research, she should input more to ensure what goes out is 100% correct and educate students the importance of that. While corrections are allowed for many journals, this does not leave a good impression. In some cases, a published paper has to be retracted for errors. If you are to publish your results, I would suggest that you send your draft to her and all other authors. Even if she hastily "approves" it, you still have others to keep an eye on it. The consequence of a problematic manuscript goes to all authors. 

I may not have the best advice for you to get out of your current situation, other than finishing your write-up and getting your degree. The decision of staying in academia or not can come after that. Have you seen someone for your depression, e.g. doctor and counsellor? This is a very important step for recovery.

Take care. 

[oceans11]

20 hours ago, telkanuru said:

For me, a large aspect of my mental health is proactively identifying and addressing the things I can control, even if they're uncomfortable. Graduate school is, at its core, self directed.

A lot of what you've said here sounds like you need to acknowledge your own agency in this situation. Your PI gave you a smaller project to work on as a learning experience before assigning you a larger one, a project which you did not complete because you were unwilling to follow her advice and confront the student monopolizing the lab. You haven't done what she asked, and therefore she has not trusted you with the larger project. Once it became clear you were unable to help yourself in the way she expected of you, she stepped in. That's a reasonable sequence of events. Similarly, submitting an article with data from someone else's lab without their consent is a fairly large faux pas in many fields, and I would not be surprised if this angered the PI.

If you want to get something out of this experience, and if you want to finish the degree, I would suggest that you set get a grasp of the tasks you have in front of you and the precise steps you need to take to complete them. This is not usually an adviser's responsibility, though they may help with the process. 

Good luck.

Yes, I understand that graduate school intends you to develop your research skills and the capability to do personal research. Regarding the main project, she had already given it to the other student even before I started my "small" project. There was no explanation given and I can only think that maybe because this student is staying longer than me. In any case, she should have informed me since it was the project that made me come and work with her. And for the previous student I agree that even if she received an email with the manuscript and plans for submission, he should have waited for confirmation. My main concern about that was, that student failed on his thesis defense but luckily was given another chance to defend. However, it was only found out that the stats were wrong when the supervisor thoroughly checked it after he tried to submit it for publication and she gave confirmation to this student's thesis.

Anyway, I am really trying hard to keep myself motivated (mostly from motivation speeches in youtube). I tried to email last week our university international relations but did not receive any reply. Looking forward when all of this ends, take a vacation and re-think my career path. What puts pressure on me is I receive a PhD scholarship, not the same topic as what I am currently working, but with the current happenings, I am considering to send an email to the PI. I am already doubting myself and I feel I should address my mental health before committing to a 4-yr phd.

[oceans11]

1 hour ago, Hope.for.the.best said:

I am sorry to hear what you are going through. Having problems with supervisor at grad school is more often than you think. So you are not alone, even though you feel that way. I too had a difficult time with my PhD supervisors. Feel free to read my previous posts. 

It sounds like your supervisor does not listen to students' concerns and offer them appropriate support.
It is also bad for her to keep shaming her students for not knowing something. Nobody knows everything. If it is something essential for a student to know but he/she doesn't know, she can simply ask him/her to look that up.
What worry me is that she does not check a manuscript thoroughly and let students send it out (and then blames later if something goes wrong). Don't get me wrong, it is every author's responsibility to ensure the accuracy of a manuscript. However, given she is a supervisor who has more experience and leads the research, she should input more to ensure what goes out is 100% correct and educate students the importance of that. While corrections are allowed for many journals, this does not leave a good impression. In some cases, a published paper has to be retracted for errors. If you are to publish your results, I would suggest that you send your draft to her and all other authors. Even if she hastily "approves" it, you still have others to keep an eye on it. The consequence of a problematic manuscript goes to all authors. 

I may not have the best advice for you to get out of your current situation, other than finishing your write-up and getting your degree. The decision of staying in academia or not can come after that. Have you seen someone for your depression, e.g. doctor and counsellor? This is a very important step for recovery.

Take care. 

Okay, I look for your posts. I have read some already and I find it therapeutic to also read the advice from others. I am also reading a book "You must be very intelligent" about the phd experience of the author.

It is one concern that she doesnt listens but it seems she also don't have enough time. However, she keep accepting students and the chain of command is not smooth. I would rather have a PhD student or postdoc to work with daily and I will just give her updates through email or weekly/bi-weekly meetings.

I initially thought that pushing someone to be aggressive is negative because of cultural differences. And you are right, nobody knows everything and I don't understand why she kept mocking if someone makes a dumb mistake or stupid questions. I can still remember my univ prof back home encouraging us to ask questions, there is no dumb or stupid questions.

And for the previous student I agree that even if she received an email with the manuscript and plans for submission, he should have waited for confirmation. My main concern about that was, that student failed on his thesis defense but luckily was given another chance to defend. However, it was only found out that the stats were wrong when the supervisor thoroughly checked it after he tried to submit it for publication and she gave confirmation to this student's thesis. 

I did email  the international relations representative of the unviersity, if there are any guidance counselors, but did not receive any reply yet. Although I was already with a PhD scholarship, starting month after my expected graduation, I am already thinking of emailing the PI to decline. My experiences here brought me to my lowest point and I am even doubting myself if I really belong here, "big game research". I am thinking of taking a break and focus on my mental health. 

[Hope.for.the.best]

13 hours ago, oceans11 said:

It is one concern that she doesnt listens but it seems she also don't have enough time. However, she keep accepting students and the chain of command is not smooth. I would rather have a PhD student or postdoc to work with daily and I will just give her updates through email or weekly/bi-weekly meetings.

Well, every supervisor is busy. No supervisors have the time to sit there and wait for you to get to them. That said, I agree that your supervisor has accepted too many students than she can comfortably manage. I don't know why your university doesn't step in to ensure the welfare of students, given they have a policy in place. A PhD student or postdoc can give you technical guidance (e.g. how an experiment is done), but they can't replace your supervisor for academic guidance. Anyway, I bet you have got all your data to get to the write-up stage. That's a big milestone. I would say finish your thesis and move on. 

13 hours ago, oceans11 said:

I initially thought that pushing someone to be aggressive is negative because of cultural differences. And you are right, nobody knows everything and I don't understand why she kept mocking if someone makes a dumb mistake or stupid questions. I can still remember my univ prof back home encouraging us to ask questions, there is no dumb or stupid questions. 

Pushing others is rarely taken positively. That said, in your situation with the other student, you could have politely talked to her about how both of you shared the lab space to get work done. Ideally, that would lead to both of you coming to an agreement, but I reckon things can be tricky with these issues. Anyway, it's sorted now, so let's forget about that.

There is not much you can do regarding your supervisor's shaming behaviours. If you read my posts, you would have known about *Cecilia. She loves to shame students like your supervisor. "You are in your 3rd year of PhD, so you should know..." If an experiment did not go well, she would accuse us of wasting her money (so we were told by her then-postdoc not to show her any data until they are flawless!!!). In such cases, we had to say "I am still working on the experiment" to avoid her harsh comments. That should not be the case, as a supervisor should work with students to troubleshoot. Anyway, you are going to finish and leave her, so hang in there! 

13 hours ago, oceans11 said:

And for the previous student I agree that even if she received an email with the manuscript and plans for submission, he should have waited for confirmation. My main concern about that was, that student failed on his thesis defense but luckily was given another chance to defend. However, it was only found out that the stats were wrong when the supervisor thoroughly checked it after he tried to submit it for publication and she gave confirmation to this student's thesis. 

The obvious reason why that student failed was errors in stat analysis. If the analysis is wrong, then the interpretation and conclusion are skewed. If you are to submit a manuscript, please ensure you receive her confirmation (as well as all other authors) before action. For your thesis, you need to be more proactive to ensure your data are correctly analysed. Don't count on your supervisor as she may not bother to check. Reach out to someone who can help with stat analysis. You can also read some stat textbooks to help you with that. 

13 hours ago, oceans11 said:

I did email  the international relations representative of the unviersity, if there are any guidance counselors, but did not receive any reply yet. Although I was already with a PhD scholarship, starting month after my expected graduation, I am already thinking of emailing the PI to decline. My experiences here brought me to my lowest point and I am even doubting myself if I really belong here, "big game research". I am thinking of taking a break and focus on my mental health. 

Those people are very busy, so they may not get back to you that quickly. Does your university have a health service? It is not a bad idea to see a doctor there. They can treat your depression and refer you to a counsellor (if your university doesn't have one). You are definitely intelligent (as the book you are reading says) to have a PhD lining up. I would say not to give that up yet. It is easy to get trapped in a negative mindset with a bad supervisor. I have been there before so I can relate. I agree that you should take a break to attend to your mental health. Is there any way you can defer your PhD studies? To my knowledge, many PhD programs allow students to defer. 

[juilletmercredi]

I'm having a difficult time understanding what the current issue is. It seems that the lab sharing issue has been resolved, and your adviser may have an unpleasant personality characteristic (the student-bashing, although that can be interpreted in many ways) that you can't change. The only issue that really leaves is making sure that you are working on the right project to ensure that you can graduate.

You said:

First, months before starting this project I had a video call meeting with my supervisor and agreed on the topic I will be working on. Considering that season is a factor for the main topic, we both agreed to have a small topic to be busy with while waiting for summer. However, when I had arrived it seems it was made clear to me that I will not be working on that main topic and will be focusing on the small topic instead. Which was already a sign for me to inform my university immediately but I did not since I was too confident that this should not take long and when summer comes, I will be doing on the agreed main topic. But setbacks after setbacks, this small topic is still not done.

It's unclear to me how it was "made clear" that you will be working on the small topic and not the main topic. Regardless, you need to seek clarity. Talk to your supervisor and explicitly ask: "When we first started, we agreed that I'd be working on topic A. But recently, I've still been working on topic B that was supposed to be a pre-summer project only. Do you expect me to finish topic B before I can work on topic A, or can I hand off my project to another student, or is there some other way that I can go back to working on topic A as planned?" or something like that. Get a clear answer from your PI rather than trying to read the tea leaves.

I don't know how a third-party university can limit the number of supervisees your PI has, and two seems unreasonable for a professor who is trying to operate a thriving lab. Are you already concerned about the level of supervision that your PI has given you, or have you already seen evidence that aren't getting what you need? Keep in mind that taking a few weeks for feedback on significant portions of your thesis is very normal in academia, and expecting daily contact with your PI (or even weekly) is going to be unrealistic. What do you feel like you're missing? Have you made explicit requests for support or assistance from your PI based on your actual needs (and are they realistic)? 

I'm not sure what your frustration is about the formal introductions, but that's not really your PI's job? You can easily introduce yourself to new faces in your PI's lab. But again, the problem that seems to have stemmed from that seems resolved.

It's also not your PI's job to "thoroughly check" a student's manuscript to make sure they didn't make analysis errors. That's the student's job. While every PI is going to want to catch egregious mistakes or things that are obviously wrong, they're not going to re-run all of your analyses and make sure that you did the work correctly.  (Or rather, they shouldn't!) At some point, the PI needs to trust that you're going to do the work correctly. If they can't, that probably means fewer projects and authorships for the student they can't trust.

That said, it seems like a running theme is you not checking with the university when things aren't working the way you expect. So instead of writing your manuscript with your fingers crossed, you need to check with your university to make sure that they will accept your work. You don't want to waste a lot of time writing only to find out that your topic won't be accepted.

PhD students don't usually supervise master's students, so assigning you to one of them may not have been appropriate. It could be that she has time and you just have too-high expectations for how much time she can give you. Whether or not she's interested in your topic is more or less irrelevant; the only relevant thing is will she support it.