Another "need advice PLEASE" page

[Jillybean]

Hello fellow Gradcafe goers,

So here's the deal, I need to decide ASAP between two terminal MA programs and I'm having a very hard time with this...Both are equally good programs in terms of job placement/ future Ph.D. program placement, but both have some MAJOR Pros and MAJOR cons.....Any advice you guys can provide is more than welcome! Thanks in advance!!

School A:

Pro:

-Better name recognition

-Larger program= better networking opportunities.

-Better location for social reasons, but more dangerous to live near this school (for a single female)

-Funding! (This is a HUGE benefit) Not completely funded, but would cost nearly $30K less than school B

-School accepts their own students to it's doctoral program (and credits are transferable) (I am not completely sure I will puruse a Ph.D., but would like for this to be an option) BUT school doesn't require a thesis to graduate. As per academic advisor (who is NOT helpful at all- see Cons section)- because the program is so large, students who wish, can write a "thesis like" paper- but it will be shorter with less guidance.

Cons:

-The student advisor is USELESS. (I met with them {pls excuse the lack of gender identifier} and they could not give me any more info than what's already on the website)

-Larger program= almost like a factory churning out grads

- Again, bad student advisor, who essentially stated that you would have to duke it out with the rest of the students in the program AND the Ph.D. students if you want an R.A. position in a lab.

School B:

Pro:

-AMAZING student advisor. I met with them. They spent 45 minutes providing me with options on what I can do with my degree, how I can make it work, where I can find more information, what it's like to actually get a Ph.D. (FYI, apparently the attrition rate for people working on their I/O Ph.Ds is nearly 75%!), and more! Just amazing! I would go to the program just to work with the advisor!!!!

- Much smaller program (approx. 20 students)= Less networking opportunities, BUT more personal attention/ guidance/ the ability to really follow a path I want

- Option to write a thesis instead of comprehensive exam (required by school A)

-Open availability for students wanting to work in Research labs, PLUS guidance to help students find internships/ more practical research opportunities outside of the realm of the school (I.e. research that yields practical applicable result,not just theoretical)

Cons:

-ZERO FUNDING!- this is a biggy. Like i mentioned above- will cost me almost $30K more... I really want to limit my debt as much as possible

-Less suitable social environment/ More difficulty finding housing.

-School does not have an Ph.D. program in the same field and therefore very rarely takes it's own students

-M.A. courses don't transfer as doctoral courses to other schools, so assuming I was to pursue a doctoral degree, I would have to start from scratch.

soooooo...i'm confused.

any advice is welcome!

Thanks!!!

[bon to the jour]

Although it's exciting to put a "big name" school on your C.V., that name won't get you very far if the school didn't teach you anything (for example, you can't work in a lab and your advisor won't really be supportive of a thesis project). Now, this lack of research experience won't really matter if you are going to work for a big company who wants someone to apply I/O stuff in the workplace --- but if you think you want to go into academia, research experience (gained en-route to a PhD) is essential.

So there are a couple big questions to ask yourself: 1) how likely is it that you'll want to work in academia, and 2) is the extra research experience and the helpful, supportive advisor worth the extra $30,000? The other things --- like social scene, for instance --- should be secondary criteria. You'll probably be to wrapped up in school work to really get into the social scene. So, is researching things or applying things more appealing to you? And if you'd rather do research, is it worth the extra $30K? This second question I ask because if you do indeed want to focus on research, I think that you'll be better off getting the experience from school B and then going to a PhD program where you'd be happier than at school A. And if it takes you a while longer to get your PhD, so what? Isn't a few extra years of school worth doing something you really enjoy for the rest of your life?

Alternatively, if you think you'd be happiest working for a company where you can apply what you already know, then I would say go for the big name school A --- this is one scenario wherein no employers will care what lab you worked in or whether you did a "thesis" as opposed to a thesis. So what are your thoughts?

Edited April 7, 2010 by bon to the jour

[iopsych]

Was the advisor referring to the attrition rate for that PhD program in particular or overall. In the past 4 years we have had about 30 students enter our program and have only had 1 drop out (and that person already had a master's and decided he would rather work). I realize that my program may not be representative of all programs, but I find it extremely hard to believe there is a 75% attrition rate for PhDs.

[Jillybean]

@ IOPsych: The advisor was referring to the attrition rate overall for I/O psych doctoral students. The figure advisor mentioned includes ABD students. Advisor explained that 75% of students either drop out or never complete their dissertation, thereby essentially placing them back into the workforce and into a job they could have had with "just" a masters degree.

@ bon to the jour (love the name, btw): you make some wonderful points, thank you.

The problem is that i'm not sure whether or not i want to pursue a doctoral degree. I absolutely LOVE research..but i'm also realistic. Do I want to spend an additional 5-7 years in school, thereby essentially putting my life on hold until I am in my early 30s?

After reading yesterday's post again, I realize that there really is no easy answer to my dilemma. The advisor in program B is wonderful, the program is wonderful (and btw, both schools are "big name" schools, school A is a little bit bigger, but the name is not a major concern), but i'm not sure advisor is worth $30K...

I'm hoping I can find another advisor (possibly a professor) at school A who will be helpful during my studies.....Any thoughts on whether this is realistic?

then again, I don't want to close any doors.... and this is where I struggle.... I want to have all of my options available should I decide to change my mind... but i'm starting to understand that i really just need to dive in and commit to a program.....

sigh.... Still need to mull this over for a bit.... Any additional thoughts?

thanks!

Edited April 7, 2010 by Jillybean

[PsychPhD]

That is a tough choice, Jilly! Perhaps the following might help your decision process along:

If you feel going to graduate school for 5-7 years "puts your life on hold," then you may not be as committed to research (or doctoral programs) as you initially thought. Truly loving research means juggling multiple projects from start to finish (1-3 year commitments each), designing/coding/analyzing/writing nonstop, and enjoying every minute of it. For those who truly love research, it IS a way of life. I saw graduate school as no different than what I wanted my 'real' life to be: teaching and research.

If you want to go applied (and I have lots of applied colleagues), go big name and network. I cannot stress enough how important that is to landing a great applied job. If you truly love research and are destined to go for the PhD, you will find a way to do research in the big program. You can always seek out other faculty in the program or other departments as a research mentor (it's so easy to collaborate online these days too!). Remember, YOU are in charge of your academic experience, so make it what you want. Also, PhD programs like to admit people from big name Master's programs (and showing them that you sought out and maintained research experience is a huge plus).

Just a few thoughts given my many moons of grad school experience--hope it helps!

[Social Psyc Researcher]

Sorry to crash your post Jillybean, I debated about whether to post a new thread or just post on yours as I am also in need of advice. So here is my issue...I applied to several programs and have been denied from most of them, although I am on the waiting list for 4 of them, and there are a couple I still haven't heard from. As my odds of being accepted are getting slim I have begun looking into other options. I recently met with a professor at a small undergraduate university who is very actively conducting research (she has had 9 pubs in the last year) and she has invited me to come RA for her next year (if I am not accepted). I am extremely excited about her research and I think she would be a great research mentor so I am pretty thrilled by her offer.

Today I heard from one of the schools I applied to (but have kind of lost interest in), asking about my application status at other schools and requesting a phone interview. It sounds like I have a pretty good chance of getting in. The program only has this one professor in my area of interest, I am concerned that this professor may not be able to provide the kind of advising style I want (a little bit too hands off), very few of the current students have any publications, and on top of that I am not too thrilled about the location. I didn't know most of these things when I applied but since then I have gotten to meet the the prof and her lab members, and I have realized it might not be the best fit.

So the question is if I am accepted into this program, and not accepted anywhere else, what do I do? I feel inclined to turn town the offer and pursue another year of research experience with the super productive researcher but then again it seems silly to turn down an offer (if it is not for another offer). My thinking is that I could make myself a better more marketable researcher in the next year so that I can be a more competitive PhD candidate next year rather than eeking my way into a program that might not be the best fit. Especially since I plan to seek a competitive academic research position after I graduate, being an active researcher and publishing my research in graduate school is very important to me.

Anyway just looking for some input...Thanks!

[Jillybean]

That is a tough choice, Jilly! Perhaps the following might help your decision process along:

If you feel going to graduate school for 5-7 years "puts your life on hold," then you may not be as committed to research (or doctoral programs) as you initially thought. Truly loving research means juggling multiple projects from start to finish (1-3 year commitments each), designing/coding/analyzing/writing nonstop, and enjoying every minute of it. For those who truly love research, it IS a way of life. I saw graduate school as no different than what I wanted my 'real' life to be: teaching and research.

If you want to go applied (and I have lots of applied colleagues), go big name and network. I cannot stress enough how important that is to landing a great applied job. If you truly love research and are destined to go for the PhD, you will find a way to do research in the big program. You can always seek out other faculty in the program or other departments as a research mentor (it's so easy to collaborate online these days too!). Remember, YOU are in charge of your academic experience, so make it what you want. Also, PhD programs like to admit people from big name Master's programs (and showing them that you sought out and maintained research experience is a huge plus).

Just a few thoughts given my many moons of grad school experience--hope it helps!

Thank you kindly masked stranger

I really appreciate the input!

Perhaps "putting my life on hold" was not the best phrasing for my feelings regarding doctoral studies. I would LOVE to continue to do research. I love everything about it, and I would gladly devote my life/career to it.... however, I have some concerns as to whether it makes both financial and personal sense to follow a dream. In other words, I would be doing something that I love, but at what expense? when I could be doing something I would enjoy, albeit a little less, but nevertheless, truly be happy doing!

lol... decisions, decisions.... but despite my troubled posts, i realize i'm lucky to have this dilemma

Regarding taking the applied path, can you elaborate? In your experience, how are the doctoral programs different? Where do these people end up? what do they do? what steps do they take?

Thanks again!!

[Jillybean]

Sorry to crash your post Jillybean, I debated about whether to post a new thread or just post on yours as I am also in need of advice. So here is my issue...I applied to several programs and have been denied from most of them, although I am on the waiting list for 4 of them, and there are a couple I still haven't heard from. As my odds of being accepted are getting slim I have begun looking into other options. I recently met with a professor at a small undergraduate university who is very actively conducting research (she has had 9 pubs in the last year) and she has invited me to come RA for her next year (if I am not accepted). I am extremely excited about her research and I think she would be a great research mentor so I am pretty thrilled by her offer.

Today I heard from one of the schools I applied to (but have kind of lost interest in), asking about my application status at other schools and requesting a phone interview. It sounds like I have a pretty good chance of getting in. The program only has this one professor in my area of interest, I am concerned that this professor may not be able to provide the kind of advising style I want (a little bit too hands off), very few of the current students have any publications, and on top of that I am not too thrilled about the location. I didn't know most of these things when I applied but since then I have gotten to meet the the prof and her lab members, and I have realized it might not be the best fit.

So the question is if I am accepted into this program, and not accepted anywhere else, what do I do? I feel inclined to turn town the offer and pursue another year of research experience with the super productive researcher but then again it seems silly to turn down an offer (if it is not for another offer). My thinking is that I could make myself a better more marketable researcher in the next year so that I can be a more competitive PhD candidate next year rather than eeking my way into a program that might not be the best fit. Especially since I plan to seek a competitive academic research position after I graduate, being an active researcher and publishing my research in graduate school is very important to me.

Anyway just looking for some input...Thanks!

No worries.

my two cents: If you are accepted into this program and nowhere else, i would really sit down and have a chat with your advisor and (possibly) some students to see what this program can offer you long term/ more about fit/ answer any lingering questions, doubts, debates... then sleep on it and think about you and your goals- can you get what you want/need out of this program? if the answer to that is "no"/ or "maybe, if I can get past difficulties X,Y,Z" then maybe it's not such a bad idea to turn down the program ( I'm doing it and I know of some others who have done it... It worked out fine)...

Better program/ better fit/ better advisor=better benefits down the road....

Good luck w ur decision

[PsychPhD]

You're welcome! And yes, you are in a great position, so don’t fret too much

The main difference with doctoral programs is that they are research heavy and broader--Master's program's are more focused on certain applied skill sets that vary by program that prepare you for specific types of applied jobs (often working under PhD folks). Many PhD programs tout the "scientist-practitioner" approach...but err on the scientist side--often too much because the professors are far too busy with research to keep up with applied experiences or applied networks (beyond statistical consulting, which I wouldn't consider real, face-to-face consulting). Many doctoral programs train you to be an academic first--the practitioner is an afterthought.

I'm proud to say that my PhD program has a true scientist-practitioner slant (many of the faculty are very active in consulting) and most of our grads are internal consultants in big, often Fortune 500, companies or external consultants in private firms. At least five of my colleagues came in with Master's degrees--two went to internal consulting jobs, one went to an external consulting firm, and two went into faculty position in organizational behavior (one more teaching than research focus in a psych department; one more research than teaching focus in a business department). They started out with much better “applied” skills than those of us coming straight from undergrad...but I noticed that we had better conceptual thinking and research skills. It worked great; everyone got to teach and learn

I would say that, when you are evaluating grad schools (Master's or Doctoral) there are four important factors to examine in relation to your interests/career goals: 1) what does the majority of their curriculum focus on (is it balanced, does it lean a certain way on skill sets that interests you), 2) how active are the faculty in research vs. consulting, 3) what kind of internships are available (and how many people get them), and 4) where do most of their grads end up. Internships are THE most critical aspect for applied folks. That's where the big name and network come in (often internships segue into full time positions). Good training is hard to show off if no one hires you...

Thank you kindly masked stranger

I really appreciate the input!

Perhaps "putting my life on hold" was not the best phrasing for my feelings regarding doctoral studies. I would LOVE to continue to do research. I love everything about it, and I would gladly devote my life/career to it.... however, I have some concerns as to whether it makes both financial and personal sense to follow a dream. In other words, I would be doing something that I love, but at what expense? when I could be doing something I would enjoy, albeit a little less, but nevertheless, truly be happy doing!

lol... decisions, decisions.... but despite my troubled posts, i realize i'm lucky to have this dilemma

Regarding taking the applied path, can you elaborate? In your experience, how are the doctoral programs different? Where do these people end up? what do they do? what steps do they take?

Thanks again!!

[PsychPhD]

No worries.

my two cents: If you are accepted into this program and nowhere else, i would really sit down and have a chat with your advisor and (possibly) some students to see what this program can offer you long term/ more about fit/ answer any lingering questions, doubts, debates... then sleep on it and think about you and your goals- can you get what you want/need out of this program? if the answer to that is "no"/ or "maybe, if I can get past difficulties X,Y,Z" then maybe it's not such a bad idea to turn down the program ( I'm doing it and I know of some others who have done it... It worked out fine)...

Better program/ better fit/ better advisor=better benefits down the road....

Good luck w ur decision

I agree with the fantastic advice above. Grad school is a big commitment...don't settle! Also keep in mind that your support system is crucial. If you are moving far away from family/friends to a program you feel lukewarm about, you are at a high risk for a disappointing and unproductive grad school experience.

It also sounds like you already have a great opportunity with future research mentor. You will be amazed how one extra year of an RA (and perhaps a few manuscripts under review/in press) will put you at the top of the list in highly desirable programs. Assuming you can make it a productive year, they will take you much more seriously as a prospective student because you seem more knowledgable about the research process and be better able to articulate your own research plans. Good luck!

[Jillybean]

You're welcome! And yes, you are in a great position, so don’t fret too much

The main difference with doctoral programs is that they are research heavy and broader--Master's program's are more focused on certain applied skill sets that vary by program that prepare you for specific types of applied jobs (often working under PhD folks). Many PhD programs tout the "scientist-practitioner" approach...but err on the scientist side--often too much because the professors are far too busy with research to keep up with applied experiences or applied networks (beyond statistical consulting, which I wouldn't consider real, face-to-face consulting). Many doctoral programs train you to be an academic first--the practitioner is an afterthought.

I'm proud to say that my PhD program has a true scientist-practitioner slant (many of the faculty are very active in consulting) and most of our grads are internal consultants in big, often Fortune 500, companies or external consultants in private firms. At least five of my colleagues came in with Master's degrees--two went to internal consulting jobs, one went to an external consulting firm, and two went into faculty position in organizational behavior (one more teaching than research focus in a psych department; one more research than teaching focus in a business department). They started out with much better “applied” skills than those of us coming straight from undergrad...but I noticed that we had better conceptual thinking and research skills. It worked great; everyone got to teach and learn

I would say that, when you are evaluating grad schools (Master's or Doctoral) there are four important factors to examine in relation to your interests/career goals: 1) what does the majority of their curriculum focus on (is it balanced, does it lean a certain way on skill sets that interests you), 2) how active are the faculty in research vs. consulting, 3) what kind of internships are available (and how many people get them), and 4) where do most of their grads end up. Internships are THE most critical aspect for applied folks. That's where the big name and network come in (often internships segue into full time positions). Good training is hard to show off if no one hires you...

Wonderful points! thanks again.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Jillybean