UPenn Robotics PhD vs CMU MSR: Severe Doubts

[pinhead]

Hello,

 

I've been very blessed to get into top programs in the robotics field. So far these have been my only acceptances (I applied to lesser ranked schools but I don't think I will go now). I plan on going to a PhD eventually as robotics research is my passion. Objectively, a UPenn funded PhD would be a no brainer as opposed to a non-funded master's, but I had actually interned in UPenn in the past and have found my experience there "questionable."

 

While I enjoyed the topic I pursued, I disliked the general feeling of the lab. About half of the people in the lab were actually cool, kind people who I clicked well with, but with the other half I felt like there was some sort of animosity, and I felt like I was really looked down upon. One day, as I was talking to one of the PhD students in the lab, he told me he himself didn't like the lab and didn't recommend me to pursue my PhD there, which I think might be a red flag. In addition, me and the PI only communicated twice over the period of 3 months, which I thought was odd. I couldn't even introduce myself, which makes me feel pretty ashamed. I worked under a postdoc during my internship, and after it ended he gave his honest opinion and told me that the PI is a nice person, but he genuinely has much more important things to deal with. The third factor that influences me is the quality of life in west Philly. It's probably my fault as I had a tendency to work late and walk home, but I felt unsafe in the streets after sunset. I had strange men approach me multiple times and I felt very uncomfortable. The sanitary conditions weren't great either in the streets either (cockroaches were common). The worst thing which happened to me is when someone attempted suicide by jumping off a bridge when I was on my way to the lab. I talked them out of it and eventually walked them to the emergency room, but it was a lot to handle mentally that day.

 

I don't know if anyone has experience with something like this, but I would really appreciate some feedback. I come from a mid-low ranked state school, and I grew up in a rural area, so I don't know people with graduate school experience or how living in big cities is truly like. I love research but I don't know what to expect in a PhD. Before admission I thought I would go to UPenn regardless (as I didn't think I could get better offers) and just suck it up because I can have a life outside of the lab and I consider myself a strong person who can handle difficulties, but now that I have an additional offer from an amazing institute I'm really doubting myself. I appreciated the huge number of resources that the lab at UPenn had compared to my school (basically nothing), and it's a big influence on me. However, I do understand that CMU MSR is a top research master's in the country and I would likely get the same resources. I'm also more attracted to CMU because I think their research has been significantly stronger than UPenn's, which seems to be in decline. However, my main worry is that because CMU only offered a master's I would need to go through the entire process for PhDs once more and I don't know if I'd get another offer. I'm also worried about the fact that I don't know Pittsburgh and I have no one I know over there to ask of their experience. The big question is whether I go directly into a PhD and simply avoid the environment or risk a Master's and get another crack at PhD apps in two years. I'm a real rookie in this situation and this is my first post so I apologize if I made mistakes in posting this, but I could really use your guys' experiences.

Edited February 10, 2020 by pinhead

[Modulus]

I have no info about the programs themselves but feel free to PM me any questions you have about Pittsburgh! 

[ericaw]

I think the best way to make this decision would be to consider the time commitment -- for a PhD you're committing 5-6 years, for a Master's you're committing about 2 years. Consider how long you want to pursue a single or a narrow range of research topics, and what you plan to do with your degree afterwards. Depending on what career you're aiming for, getting a Masters and gaining 3-4 years of industry experience may put you on par or even above where you might be if you had gotten a PhD with that time instead.

[gliagirl]

Not in robotics field, but a 1st-year PhD student UPenn in the sciences and happy to share my experience so far if you want to PM me!

[shreyasskandan]

On 2/10/2020 at 1:15 AM, pinhead said:

Hello,

 

I've been very blessed to get into top programs in the robotics field. So far these have been my only acceptances (I applied to lesser ranked schools but I don't think I will go now). I plan on going to a PhD eventually as robotics research is my passion. Objectively, a UPenn funded PhD would be a no brainer as opposed to a non-funded master's, but I had actually interned in UPenn in the past and have found my experience there "questionable."

 

While I enjoyed the topic I pursued, I disliked the general feeling of the lab. About half of the people in the lab were actually cool, kind people who I clicked well with, but with the other half I felt like there was some sort of animosity, and I felt like I was really looked down upon. One day, as I was talking to one of the PhD students in the lab, he told me he himself didn't like the lab and didn't recommend me to pursue my PhD there, which I think might be a red flag. In addition, me and the PI only communicated twice over the period of 3 months, which I thought was odd. I couldn't even introduce myself, which makes me feel pretty ashamed. I worked under a postdoc during my internship, and after it ended he gave his honest opinion and told me that the PI is a nice person, but he genuinely has much more important things to deal with. The third factor that influences me is the quality of life in west Philly. It's probably my fault as I had a tendency to work late and walk home, but I felt unsafe in the streets after sunset. I had strange men approach me multiple times and I felt very uncomfortable. The sanitary conditions weren't great either in the streets either (cockroaches were common). The worst thing which happened to me is when someone attempted suicide by jumping off a bridge when I was on my way to the lab. I talked them out of it and eventually walked them to the emergency room, but it was a lot to handle mentally that day.

 

I don't know if anyone has experience with something like this, but I would really appreciate some feedback. I come from a mid-low ranked state school, and I grew up in a rural area, so I don't know people with graduate school experience or how living in big cities is truly like. I love research but I don't know what to expect in a PhD. Before admission I thought I would go to UPenn regardless (as I didn't think I could get better offers) and just suck it up because I can have a life outside of the lab and I consider myself a strong person who can handle difficulties, but now that I have an additional offer from an amazing institute I'm really doubting myself. I appreciated the huge number of resources that the lab at UPenn had compared to my school (basically nothing), and it's a big influence on me. However, I do understand that CMU MSR is a top research master's in the country and I would likely get the same resources. I'm also more attracted to CMU because I think their research has been significantly stronger than UPenn's, which seems to be in decline. However, my main worry is that because CMU only offered a master's I would need to go through the entire process for PhDs once more and I don't know if I'd get another offer. I'm also worried about the fact that I don't know Pittsburgh and I have no one I know over there to ask of their experience. The big question is whether I go directly into a PhD and simply avoid the environment or risk a Master's and get another crack at PhD apps in two years. I'm a real rookie in this situation and this is my first post so I apologize if I made mistakes in posting this, but I could really use your guys' experiences.

Hi pinhead,

Let me start off by saying I'm sorry that you had a sour experience during your internship. I'm currently a PhD student at Penn and it's a shame you didn't get to enjoy your time here. I will address a few questions separately:

1. Penn PhD vs CMU Masters: I came to Penn's Robotics program as a Master's student a good 5 years ago. I came here with no intention to pursue research; my primary goal was to compensate for what I believed to be an inadequate Bachelor's education, plus I wanted to switch to Robotics from a Computer Science background. Penn's Robotics program is great - it exceeded all my expectations and I had (mostly) a great time. Along the way I realized that I did in fact enjoy the research process and decided to apply to the PhD program after I was done.

Do I regret doing the Penn Robotics Master's program? Nope, not one bit. It was during my experience there that I was exposed to all the cool projects that different Professors were working on and I got a taste for research. But I will say this, If i knew then that I would have an interest in research, I would have enrolled into the PhD program directly and saved a ton of money. Both Penn and CMU's Masters programs are not small amounts of money, so I would have to say if the choice is down to Masters at University A or PhD at University B, that almost always, the more practical option is University B.

As a PhD student, you have a sufficient amount of time to "find yourself" before strongly committing to a specific Professor / group. Most PhD programs at Penn have a set of qualifying courses and/or exams, similar to the Master's program, except you will be held to somewhat higher (often debatable?) standards. The benefit here, however, is that if at the end of your coursework / qualifiers you decide that you absolutely do not fit in here, you could graduate with a Robo Masters (provided you've met all of the Robo requirements).

In short, I'd say if the choice was between Penn's Robo Masters and CMU's Robo Masters - the choice might have been a tough one. But since you've already got into Penn's PhD program, you definitely show a strong inclination towards research and have proven to be technically competent, making the PhD a great choice for you.

2. Philadelphia vs Not Philadelphia: This one is a tricky question to answer. Before coming to Penn I had never been to the US before. I've traveled to Europe a few times and a bunch of different Asian countries. Philadelphia was quite a disappointing city at first. Everybody that I knew in the US and outside the US seemed to have very strong opinions against Philadelphia, constantly citing how dangerous it is etc. etc, so I definitely didn't enter this city with an open mind. I did what most new Penn students do and built a small bubble around myself, rarely venturing out beyond the Engineering building on one end and Fresh Grocer on the other. But over the last 5 years I've grown to really enjoy my time in the city. Philadelphia, if you give it a chance, has a lot to offer in terms of music, food, biking trails, etc. If there's one thing to take away from this - there's more to Philadelphia than West Philly! But it's a pity that most Master's students don't really get to experience all of this in their short 4 semesters here. I wouldn't let Philadelphia as a city influence your decision because I'm confident that the city will grow on you if you give it a chance! Apartment hunting is a whole other beast, but in short there are some great affordable options if you start looking early enough.  As for feeling unsafe in certain areas, I won't attempt to tell you that's not true because it is - I've had plenty of similar experiences in my time here. But if you think about it, this mostly applies to specific parts of specific neighborhoods which most of us don't really venture out into. The campus on it's own is very well monitored and there's a huge support system of Penn Police and Philadelphia Police in the campus area as you must've noticed!

3. Lab Experience: It seems to me that this is the most influential factor in your decision right now because of the experience you already had and I don't want to come across sounding like I know what you went through. But I will say this:

(a) Most PhD programs will not bind you to a particular Professor until a year or sometimes two years(!) into your PhD program. This is the most important decision of your PhD since you are choosing who you believe should guide you through the many ups and downs of the adventure that is a PhD.

(b) Listen to peoples opinions, but also keep an ear out for bias. It's usually a good idea to talk to other PhD students in a group to get a sense for what your experience would be. But personally I believe this applies only to small groups. In larger research groups, this idea somewhat breaks down quickly. Large research groups will have a large diversity of students (some who've been around for a year or two, some for 5-6 years and some who've been around for more!). And as with any situation that involves a lot of people, over a long period of time - people turn bitter. Personally, I've heard so many conflicting opinions about so many different professors that I've just learnt to rely on my own experience and ignore what almost everyone has to say. If you must get an opinion - stick to those students who've been around for 1-2 years as they're probably going to give you the least biased opinion. Before I joined the PhD program I had a post-doc try to dissuade me from working with my advisor, but I was lucky enough to realize very soon that there was no truth to his statements and there was just some ill feelings being projected for no reason. Humans are an interesting species. And I'm very grateful that I didn't listen to him because my experience has been amazing so far. I've also had the opposite experience where I was told great things about a certain Professor but ended up having the most miserable experience with him early on in my Masters program.

(c) If you want to continue working under the same Professor you interned with, I recommend that you request a private meeting with him/her and voice out all our concerns. This is someone who you will need to be comfortable communicating with for the next 5 years so depending on how they handle your concerns, you will get an idea of how they manage things. And if at the end of that meeting you still aren't comfortable, you have the ability to work with someone else until you finally find someone you want to work for! Just know that the PhD program offers more flexibility than you think.

I hope this gives you some things to think about. I'm always happy to answer more questions if you have them, just shoot me a message.

Good luck with your decision. You've got into two great schools - perhaps two of the best Robotics related institutions in the country. You can't really go wrong with either!

 

[pinhead]

On 2/13/2020 at 9:41 PM, shreyasskandan said:

Hi pinhead,

Let me start off by saying I'm sorry that you had a sour experience during your internship. I'm currently a PhD student at Penn and it's a shame you didn't get to enjoy your time here. I will address a few questions separately:

1. Penn PhD vs CMU Masters: I came to Penn's Robotics program as a Master's student a good 5 years ago. I came here with no intention to pursue research; my primary goal was to compensate for what I believed to be an inadequate Bachelor's education, plus I wanted to switch to Robotics from a Computer Science background. Penn's Robotics program is great - it exceeded all my expectations and I had (mostly) a great time. Along the way I realized that I did in fact enjoy the research process and decided to apply to the PhD program after I was done.

Do I regret doing the Penn Robotics Master's program? Nope, not one bit. It was during my experience there that I was exposed to all the cool projects that different Professors were working on and I got a taste for research. But I will say this, If i knew then that I would have an interest in research, I would have enrolled into the PhD program directly and saved a ton of money. Both Penn and CMU's Masters programs are not small amounts of money, so I would have to say if the choice is down to Masters at University A or PhD at University B, that almost always, the more practical option is University B.

As a PhD student, you have a sufficient amount of time to "find yourself" before strongly committing to a specific Professor / group. Most PhD programs at Penn have a set of qualifying courses and/or exams, similar to the Master's program, except you will be held to somewhat higher (often debatable?) standards. The benefit here, however, is that if at the end of your coursework / qualifiers you decide that you absolutely do not fit in here, you could graduate with a Robo Masters (provided you've met all of the Robo requirements).

In short, I'd say if the choice was between Penn's Robo Masters and CMU's Robo Masters - the choice might have been a tough one. But since you've already got into Penn's PhD program, you definitely show a strong inclination towards research and have proven to be technically competent, making the PhD a great choice for you.

2. Philadelphia vs Not Philadelphia: This one is a tricky question to answer. Before coming to Penn I had never been to the US before. I've traveled to Europe a few times and a bunch of different Asian countries. Philadelphia was quite a disappointing city at first. Everybody that I knew in the US and outside the US seemed to have very strong opinions against Philadelphia, constantly citing how dangerous it is etc. etc, so I definitely didn't enter this city with an open mind. I did what most new Penn students do and built a small bubble around myself, rarely venturing out beyond the Engineering building on one end and Fresh Grocer on the other. But over the last 5 years I've grown to really enjoy my time in the city. Philadelphia, if you give it a chance, has a lot to offer in terms of music, food, biking trails, etc. If there's one thing to take away from this - there's more to Philadelphia than West Philly! But it's a pity that most Master's students don't really get to experience all of this in their short 4 semesters here. I wouldn't let Philadelphia as a city influence your decision because I'm confident that the city will grow on you if you give it a chance! Apartment hunting is a whole other beast, but in short there are some great affordable options if you start looking early enough.  As for feeling unsafe in certain areas, I won't attempt to tell you that's not true because it is - I've had plenty of similar experiences in my time here. But if you think about it, this mostly applies to specific parts of specific neighborhoods which most of us don't really venture out into. The campus on it's own is very well monitored and there's a huge support system of Penn Police and Philadelphia Police in the campus area as you must've noticed!

3. Lab Experience: It seems to me that this is the most influential factor in your decision right now because of the experience you already had and I don't want to come across sounding like I know what you went through. But I will say this:

(a) Most PhD programs will not bind you to a particular Professor until a year or sometimes two years(!) into your PhD program. This is the most important decision of your PhD since you are choosing who you believe should guide you through the many ups and downs of the adventure that is a PhD.

(b) Listen to peoples opinions, but also keep an ear out for bias. It's usually a good idea to talk to other PhD students in a group to get a sense for what your experience would be. But personally I believe this applies only to small groups. In larger research groups, this idea somewhat breaks down quickly. Large research groups will have a large diversity of students (some who've been around for a year or two, some for 5-6 years and some who've been around for more!). And as with any situation that involves a lot of people, over a long period of time - people turn bitter. Personally, I've heard so many conflicting opinions about so many different professors that I've just learnt to rely on my own experience and ignore what almost everyone has to say. If you must get an opinion - stick to those students who've been around for 1-2 years as they're probably going to give you the least biased opinion. Before I joined the PhD program I had a post-doc try to dissuade me from working with my advisor, but I was lucky enough to realize very soon that there was no truth to his statements and there was just some ill feelings being projected for no reason. Humans are an interesting species. And I'm very grateful that I didn't listen to him because my experience has been amazing so far. I've also had the opposite experience where I was told great things about a certain Professor but ended up having the most miserable experience with him early on in my Masters program.

(c) If you want to continue working under the same Professor you interned with, I recommend that you request a private meeting with him/her and voice out all our concerns. This is someone who you will need to be comfortable communicating with for the next 5 years so depending on how they handle your concerns, you will get an idea of how they manage things. And if at the end of that meeting you still aren't comfortable, you have the ability to work with someone else until you finally find someone you want to work for! Just know that the PhD program offers more flexibility than you think.

I hope this gives you some things to think about. I'm always happy to answer more questions if you have them, just shoot me a message.

Good luck with your decision. You've got into two great schools - perhaps two of the best Robotics related institutions in the country. You can't really go wrong with either!

 

Thank you so much for your amazing advice! In the end I chose CMU MSR. After reading about MSR it seems a lot of people get funded after one semester, so money issues would be good on that front. I also really liked the advisors over there as their research was strong and they were very communicative. In the end I was really disappointed with my advisor in UPenn; per shreyasskandan's advice I reached out to my advisor but he didn't answer. I reached out to other potential advisors but they didn't answer either. As shreyasskandan said, this doesn't mean these people are necessarily bad for not responding, but the lack of professionalism really turns me off, especially since this is a critical moment for my life. I know it's a risk with CMU but I think dabbling in MSR with a thesis after 2 years as opposed to committing to a PhD offer for ~7/8 years may be the better choice to see whether I really should continue to a PhD.