JD/MPP

[xnormajeanx]

I'm curious to know what people think about this joint degree type. Will it get you a lot further than a straight MPP or JD? What can you do with this degree? If you do a joint degree and then want to go into law, will it be looked upon favorably or unfavorably (since it's fewer credits...)?

[MPPHopeful]

I'm curious to know what people think about this joint degree type. Will it get you a lot further than a straight MPP or JD? What can you do with this degree? If you do a joint degree and then want to go into law, will it be looked up favorably or unfavorably (since it's fewer credits...)?

I'm a current law student waiting to hear back on my MPP/MPA applications. Generally, it's looked favorably upon, particularly if you're looking to be involved in government or regulatory legal work. Generally, the MPP isn't really required for anything - ordinarily people do just peachy with JDs. I personally applied for the MPP because I was looking to gain greater knowledge of policy/economics, which were both fairly lacking in my background. Other people pursue the joint JD/MPP for other reasons. Regardless of the rationale behind doing that combination, however, it is not looked down upon (though, admittedly, if you're at top schools the joint degree won't matter all too much for employment - it'll be more of an icing on the cake).

[unknownscholar]

im doing it too..or trying to. my lsats suck so i'll be starting the mpp first then apply to the jd in 09.

[xnormajeanx]

I'm just worried it'll be a bit of a 'watered down' law school experience, because you won't be fully immersed in the law school -- and neither will you be fully immersed in the MPP program. thoughts on that?

[MPPHopeful]

I'm just worried it'll be a bit of a 'watered down' law school experience, because you won't be fully immersed in the law school -- and neither will you be fully immersed in the MPP program. thoughts on that?

Nah, I wouldn't worry about the academic experience being watered down. It's generally a 4 year program...so you save 1 year and you do so by taking courses on say Administrative Law and Federal Taxation or similar topics that will satisfy the requirements of both degrees. Granted, you will not receive the "Full" MPP experience from my perspective, as a large number of your MPP electives will be taken at the law school. As a current law student who is applying, I can definitely say that I have had a great experience thus far in law school and I don't perceive that my experience will be "watered down" in any way by pursuing a joint degree. The one drawback, unfortunately for me, is that if the two schools you attend are in different cities (i.e., your law school is in say Chicago and your MPP program is in say Cambridge/Princeton), you will have to take time away from the law school to take classes at the MPP program...leading to being away from friends, moving, all that jazz. But if you can deal with that (and remember that your friends will still be at the law school upon your return), then even that situation wouldn't be a problem.

I honestly wasn't thinking of applying for an MPP when I applied to law school. I deferred matriculation for a year, worked in DC, and decided that I definitely wanted to focus on public policy and the law. If I were sure going in that I wanted to apply for both a JD and an MPP, then I would strongly suggest that you apply to schools with strong programs in each discipline.

[MPPHopeful]

im doing it too..or trying to. my lsats suck so i'll be starting the mpp first then apply to the jd in 09.

Yeah, take advantage of the LSAC "take the highest score" rule. Study study study and you should do well. The LSAT is a highly learnable test and with repeated practice and decent smarts you should do fine.

[xnormajeanx]

What about taking on so much debt? (Extra year(s) school...) Good idea? Bad?

[unknownscholar]

Yes I'm studying about as much as one can be. Even with my full time job, I've been preparing on my own for the test again, even though I'm taking a course in April. Starting all over with lsat prep from scratch, and I'm understanding the test a lot better. I'm kind of excited :-D

In terms of the debt, I too was concerned about the extra tuition, but if I end up starting at GWU's MPP, I'm going to apply early decision for their law program because if you're accepted this way, they pay all of your tuition. Since I think they give you a flat tuition rate for doing a dual degree program, my tuition wouldn't necessarily increase just because I'm doing more than one program. it seems that, if I get in ED, it will have made my overall cost less than it would have been had I only done the MPP. I have to look into any restrictions they might have for applying ED for law at GWU, but if I'm right, I don't think I could pass up that route.

[xnormajeanx]

Yes I'm studying about as much as one can be. Even with my full time job, I've been preparing on my own for the test again, even though I'm taking a course in April. Starting all over with lsat prep from scratch, and I'm understanding the test a lot better. I'm kind of excited :-D

In terms of the debt, I too was concerned about the extra tuition, but if I end up starting at GWU's MPP, I'm going to apply early decision for their law program because if you're accepted this way, they pay all of your tuition. Since I think they give you a flat tuition rate for doing a dual degree program, my tuition wouldn't necessarily increase just because I'm doing more than one program. it seems that, if I get in ED, it will have made my overall cost less than it would have been had I only done the MPP. I have to look into any restrictions they might have for applying ED for law at GWU, but if I'm right, I don't think I could pass up that route.

wow. i've never heard of a law school paying all your tuition. i had no idea that existed. insane!

[MPPHopeful]

wow. i've never heard of a law school paying all your tuition. i had no idea that existed. insane!

Law schools have to compete amongst themselves for talent as well...have strong enough stats and schools will pay for you to attend (I think CLS is the highest ranked school with a full scholarship with no strings attached, though NYU and Penn have full rides for public interest people, NU and Duke give out free rides, etc).

[JordanJames]

I'm curious to know what people think about this joint degree type. Will it get you a lot further than a straight MPP or JD? What can you do with this degree? If you do a joint degree and then want to go into law, will it be looked upon favorably or unfavorably (since it's fewer credits...)?

Just a note for those of you planning on doing a joint mpp/jd, if you plan on being a lawyer, the mpp literally won't matter whatsoever. And by literally, I mean if you were up against another person for a job and they couldn't decide between the 2 of you, the mpp wouldn't even be the 10th tiebreaker. So if you know you want to be a lawyer, save yourself a year and however much you were planning on spending on the program and just go to the best law school that accepts you. A joint mba/jd helps job prospects in certain situations, but the mpp has no value in the legal community. There are only 4 things that matter when it comes to legal job opportunities: 1) your school, 2) whether you are on journal, 3) your first year grades, and 4) your interviews. Nothing else really matters.

I'm not disparaging or looking down on an mpp degree, but if you want to be a lawyer, don't do it.

[JordanJames]

Also, if you want to work for the government, you'd be better advised to do legal work in that area while you're in law school and show an interest in that area by taking classes that are related to that area. Thus, if you want to work for the EPA or a state EPA, be active in the Environmental Law Society, take a volunteer internship with the EPA, and take classes in environmental and regulatory law. If you really want to boost your credentials and don't mind spending extra time and cash, I'd suggest getting an LLM in the area you'd like to go into after finishing law school. Getting your LLM only takes a year, it's MUCH less competitive than JD admissions, and it'll look much more impressive to legal employers (because you've gained specialization in a field). Even the LLM isn't a gateway to a great job, the 4 factors I listed above are by far the most important criteria.

[MPPHopeful]

Just a note for those of you planning on doing a joint mpp/jd, if you plan on being a lawyer, the mpp literally won't matter whatsoever. And by literally, I mean if you were up against another person for a job and they couldn't decide between the 2 of you, the mpp wouldn't even be the 10th tiebreaker. So if you know you want to be a lawyer, save yourself a year and however much you were planning on spending on the program and just go to the best law school that accepts you. A joint mba/jd helps job prospects in certain situations, but the mpp has no value in the legal community. There are only 4 things that matter when it comes to legal job opportunities: 1) your school, 2) whether you are on journal, 3) your first year grades, and 4) your interviews. Nothing else really matters.

I'm not disparaging or looking down on an mpp degree, but if you want to be a lawyer, don't do it.

Fair enough...but when you interview well, have good grades, go to a top 10 law school (not sure about journals yet, we don't do the writing competition until the summer)...

people'll obviously be fine w/ just the JD...but there is a certain amount of utility just in terms of knowledge you can acquire at a public policy school and having a degree from KSG or WWS will not harm people in DC when job-searching

[JordanJames]

Fair enough...but when you interview well, have good grades, go to a top 10 law school (not sure about journals yet, we don't do the writing competition until the summer)...

people'll obviously be fine w/ just the JD...but there is a certain amount of utility just in terms of knowledge you can acquire at a public policy school and having a degree from KSG or WWS will not harm people in DC when job-searching

It won't harm you, and if you don't necessarily want to be a lawyer, it might open up opportunities. But, when it comes down jobs in the law, it won't help at all. The thing about it is, they don't care if you have knowledge or know how to do things outside of the law (except accounting, finance, and technical knowledge). Many people at lower law schools do just fine as well because they get good grades their first year and make journal.

What I'm talking about is strictly confined to people who want to be lawyers afterwards. I can't comment on the utility of a JD/MPP when lookin for jobs outside of the law.

This is the way legal recruiting works:

All of these people recruit the fall after your 1L year. They will offer summer associateships to the people they want, and generally will hire all or almost all of their summer associates. Also, I can't emphasize how important journal membership is. If you're on the main law journal for your school, you will find a good job.

1. A small number of highly selective law firms won't even look at you if you didn't graduate from a top 15, top 20 or top 25 law school. BUT this only a handful of law firms.

2. Many large law firms will look at students at any school in the first 2 tiers, but they will require very good GPAs and being on journal to get an interview.

3. Regional powerhouse law firms will recruit at every law school, regardless of tier (but they will mainly take students from the top law schools, and top students from the other law schools). Again, a high GPA is a must, and journal membership is huge.

4. Midsized and reputable boutique law firms will higher people using the same criteria, but will sometimes recruit your 3L year as well. Of course, the GPA recuirements are a little more relaxed for these law firms.

5. Small law firms usually recruit the next year and still value the criteria I listed, but obviously cannot be as selective.

Getting a good government job is a little bit different. In most instances, they recruit at

1. US DA's office jobs usually require work experience in a prosecutor's office first, but a few super stars are taken immediately after law school.

2. Some are selective, some aren't as selective, but they all use the same criteria in evaluating applicants as the law firms.

3. There is one additional criteria they use: Do you have a demonstrated interest and understanding of the area of law you would like to practice? This does not mean that if you want to work for the EPA that they will care if you worked for Greenpeace collecting donations. They want to see that you've taken the right classes, joined the right organizations, and worked in this area in the summers prior to your applying for the job. They also don't want policy wonks, they just want peole who can do the job. They have people analyzing policy, they have economists working for them, they want you to be a lawyer and nothing more. So, anything unrelated to the law (again, the notable exceptions are people with technical, finance or accounting backgrounds) is useless to them.

Anyways, I hope this helps.

[MPPHopeful]

Aamar - doesn't particularly help me too much (having worked in the gov't before attending law school and given that the firm hiring process is a topic of far too frequent topics at all law schools)...but for everyone else, yeah, what he says is pretty much right on.

[mmulling]

As a current JD/MPP student, I tend to agree with most of your views. I started my program as a MPP candidate, and then applied to the law school. I am not a law student that plans on just being a regular lawyer, and I would not recommend the dual program in such a situation.

Cost is certainly one underrated consideration. I've actually worked full-time for my current institution for the past two years, and will be moving out of the part-time program at the end of my second year. This has allowed for tuition remission, meaning that I have not had to pay most of my tuition bill. Since I will be moving on at the end of the semester, my final debt load will still be $100,000. Still a nice chunk of change.

If you want a JD/MPP, you likely want some sort of policy job. You can do most policy jobs with either. The biggest difference would be in an area where you needed legislative drafting skills. This isnt the sort of position that you would need the quantitative background. If you were an Econ major in undergrad, forget about the dual program (unless its cheap). MPP tends to be a lot of the same skills, especially econometrics and economics. There are some policy classes in law school, and you can take electives on other campuses if you choose.

I have no regrets thus far with my choice. I plan on working for a committee in Congress, and only having two years worth of loans is a lot different than four years worth. Policy jobs tend to not pay terribly well, even with a JD. Do not let the argument that you will get paid more with a JD sway. And think long and hard about the debt load.