Last Minute Columbia SIPA vs. Johns Hopkins SAIS

[Tariqks]

Hi everyone!

My decision process has kind of been turned on its head, so I wanted some outside perspective. Just last week, I committed to Johns Hopkins SAIS (MA), where I received a really generous scholarship offer of $80k for the 2 years. However, today Columbia SIPA (MIA) matched the offer and slightly more, so now I am seriously considering it. 

Within the IR framework, I’ll be concentrating in security/conflict resolution with a further focus on the Middle East. I want to use grad school as a way to open myself up to career opportunities, but want to focus on the diplomatic track, think tanks/UN, or even the possibility of journalism which has always been a passion. SIPA always had a bit of an edge for me personally due to several faculty members with research interests/backgrounds more directly relevant to mine, more interesting course options/curriculum, the ability to take courses at other departments (like journalism or law), plus perhaps more name recognition here and abroad. However, SAIS had the benefit of being in DC, with more direct access to security/Middle East-focused think tanks and gov agencies. Something that really turned me off from SAIS, though, was the heavy emphasis on economics, and I feel that the econ courses required at SIPA may be more relevant for my career interests. 

At the end of the day, I'm kind of just shocked at this turn around and would love to hear any and all thoughts! 

[Mppirgradschool]

I would head to SIPA, as its strengths lie in the fields that interest you (i.e. diplomacy and journalism). With regards to the latter, SIPA has an impressive list of journalist alums that include Karen Attiah, recruited by Jamal Khashoggi as Global Opinions editor of the Washington Post, and Roula Khalaf, the current editor of the Financial Times (amongst others).

The ISP track is very strong, and I know that it's a popular concentration for Pickering and Rangel Fellows that will be commissioned as U.S. diplomats upon graduation. Richard Betts, the program director, also heads the Saltzman Institute and is an eminent voice in the field. Some of its alums have gone on to the highest echelons of the security field  as well. These include current head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley, and past CIA Director George Tenet.

I personally prefer SIPA over SAIS, as I like that its alums are more seasoned and I find to be better managers. SIPA is a stronger brand than SAIS internationally, which is something you should also consider...

Edited May 5, 2020 by Mppirgradschool

[GradSchoolGrad]

2 hours ago, Mppirgradschool said:

I would head to SIPA, as its strengths lie in the fields that interest you (i.e. diplomacy and journalism). With regards to the latter, SIPA has an impressive list of journalist alums that include Karen Attiah, recruited by Jamal Khashoggi as Global Opinions editor of the Washington Post, and Roula Khalaf, the current editor of the Financial Times (amongst others).

The ISP track is very strong, and I know that it's a popular concentration for Pickering and Rangel Fellows that will be commissioned as U.S. diplomats upon graduation. Richard Betts, the program director, also heads the Saltzman Institute and is an eminent voice in the field. Some of its alums have gone on to the highest echelons of the security field  as well. These include current head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley, and past CIA Director George Tenet.

I personally prefer SIPA over SAIS, as I like that its alums are more seasoned and I find to be better managers. SIPA is a stronger brand than SAIS internationally, which is something you should also consider...

Wow... the world must be ending because I find myself disagreeing with @Mppirgradschool for the second time in a week. Normally we have been lockstep.

First of all, I don't dispute any of what that person says, but I recommend you think about it from my perspective.

So I would recommend SAIS because:

1. I will admit that is because I am biased towards those with more rigorous econometric training (assuming everything else is in order of course like management skills, tact, and etc.) because in world that is increasingly impinged upon data, that simply just matters more. Also, it is a safety blanket for you win the job market. I always tell the story of how my friends who went to SAIS faired better in the last recession because they were able to pivot their econometrics skills to other things, even if it is something crazy and unexpected like Wheat trade analysis.  

2. I probably would need more clarity on how you define security/conflict resolution (its honestly a term that is thrown around like crazy), but I will tell you having worked in the IR - Security space in my previous life, I have found it to be littered with SAIS alums, but don't remember anyone from SIPA. I will admit that I was more on the US Government activities side of the house + tied to DC.

3. I really don't like how SIPA does its community (granted some strong micro-cohorts bonding does materialize), but by in large all my friends and SIPA never really got connected with their SIPA community as they lived their NYC lives. SAIS is very much a stronger community (granted it does get to be a bit segmented based upon topical interests. I for one thinks its really important to have a strong grad school community for your emotional well-being because grad school can be really lonely without it. 

4. One of the biggest differentiators that you can acquire in the job market is how good your projecting / internship experience is. Bottom line, you win with DC. True, you might lose out a bit on some international NGOs (UN and etc.) by virtue of just not having the proximity advantage to network.

Some thoughts about your considerations for SIPA:

1. I understand you have a passion for journalism, and although Columbia has great programming for it, I wouldn't recommend couching your grad school decisions on journalism. First of all it is portable, so you can do it and focus on it anywhere with marginal differences in quality between NYC and DC. Second, it is not exactly a great place for career establishment these days due to journalism economics. As much as it pains me to say this because I am a NY Times subscriber, arguably, Washington Post is probably coming out to be the better innovator (arguably) in journalism of late (you can thank Jeff Bezos for some of that that).  I speak of this in terms of what you have access to between the cities, because that will be more important than what you learn in a classroom setting.

2. I looked at SIPA and said no to it. One of the things that really bothered me about Columbia is how much they like to brag about their celeb professors as marketing plays, and they have quite a few big names. I have heard over the years that some of Columbia's celeb professors don't necessarily have the best teaching quality or accessibility (this is what people tell me who worked in SIPA/gone to SIPA). Interestingly, SIPA's most famous academic (or should I say connected academic) is persona non-grata in many parts of the academic world - Jeffrey Sachs (just google Jeffrey Sachs academic dishonesty). I am sure overall, the celeb professors are value added in some marginal extent, but my entire point is that, don't let celeb professors of SIPA be a determining factor. 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[Mppirgradschool]

Haha, yeah I think @GradSchoolGrad agree in most things but this topic is always divisive. The SAIS vs SIPA dilemma is one that many face and people ultimately gravitate towards the one they fit best at. I have great friends that have gone to both, but they differ in personality/vibes: my friends at SAIS are more structured and bureaucratic vs. my friends at SIPA that are more entrepreneurial and have better soft skills. I think this reflects the stereotypes of DC vs NY people in a nutshell.

Just to give my 2 cents on a few things:

8 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

So I would recommend SAIS because:

1. I will admit that is because I am biased towards those with more rigorous econometric training (assuming everything else is in order of course like management skills, tact, and etc.) because in world that is increasingly impinged upon data, that simply just matters more. Also, it is a safety blanket for you win the job market. I always tell the story of how my friends who went to SAIS faired better in the last recession because they were able to pivot their econometrics skills to other things, even if it is something crazy and unexpected like Wheat trade analysis.  

I think this is true, will caution that SAIS alums are more drawn to these jobs requiring econometrics to begin with.

8 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

2. I probably would need more clarity on how you define security/conflict resolution (its honestly a term that is thrown around like crazy), but I will tell you having worked in the IR - Security space in my previous life, I have found it to be littered with SAIS alums, but don't remember anyone from SIPA. I will admit that I was more on the US Government activities side of the house + tied to DC.

I have noticed, although anecdotally, that SAIS alums cluster in certain orgs whereas SIPA alums end up in a wider breadth of orgs. 

8 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

3. I really don't like how SIPA does its community (granted some strong micro-cohorts bonding does materialize), but by in large all my friends and SIPA never really got connected with their SIPA community as they lived their NYC lives. SAIS is very much a stronger community (granted it does get to be a bit segmented based upon topical interests. I for one thinks its really important to have a strong grad school community for your emotional well-being because grad school can be really lonely without it. 

Agree with this, although I think that many people heading to SIPA already have a network in NY before attending. You're also going to get a higher concentration of SIPA students that come from incredibly well-connected, international and wealthy backgrounds. People that studied high school in Le Rosey, and have been groomed to lead their parents' business/become Foreign Minister of their respective country.

A good friend of mine graduated from SIPA ten years ago and graduated in the same class as the current Ambassador of Afghanistan to the US and the current Minister of Foreign Affairs of Afghanistan. Impressive outcomes for people only ten years out of SIPA.

8 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

Some thoughts about your considerations for SIPA:

1. I understand you have a passion for journalism, and although Columbia has great programming for it, I wouldn't recommend couching your grad school decisions on journalism. First of all it is portable, so you can do it and focus on it anywhere with marginal differences in quality between NYC and DC. Second, it is not exactly a great place for career establishment these days due to journalism economics. As much as it pains me to say this because I am a NY Times subscriber, arguably, Washington Post is probably coming out to be the better innovator (arguably) in journalism of late (you can thank Jeff Bezos for some of that that).  I speak of this in terms of what you have access to between the cities, because that will be more important than what you learn in a classroom setting.

I do think that the accompanying graduate schools at SIPA, all of which top-ranked (B-School, Law, Journalism), give it a distinct advantage over SAIS, which is really quite siloed. 

 

8 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

 

2. I looked at SIPA and said no to it. One of the things that really bothered me about Columbia is how much they like to brag about their celeb professors as marketing plays, and they have quite a few big names. I have heard over the years that some of Columbia's celeb professors don't necessarily have the best teaching quality or accessibility (this is what people tell me who worked in SIPA/gone to SIPA). Interestingly, SIPA's most famous academic (or should I say connected academic) is persona non-grata in many parts of the academic world - Jeffrey Sachs (just google Jeffrey Sachs academic dishonesty). I am sure overall, the celeb professors are value added in some marginal extent, but my entire point is that, don't let celeb professors of SIPA be a determining factor. 

 

 

Sachs is a polarizing guy and is a rare example of an economist reaching super-stardom. I guess you stop thinking that rules apply to you once you get to that level haha. I will say that I enjoy his books a lot, and think his explanation of how U.S. interest groups have defined U.S. policy in the past fifty years is novel and interesting.

In the end SAIS and SIPA is based on your preferences, I lean more towards the latter because of who I am as a person. I am also a better fit in NY than DC...

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Mppirgradschool

[Tariqks]

@Mppirgradschool and @GradSchoolGrad firstly, thanks so much for taking the time to give such thorough input, it's really helpful! This is definitely a good dilemma to be in, however, the decision has become a lot more difficult to make due to the fact that I couldn't visit both programs in person and make face-to-face connections with other students/faculty. I have until May 8 (!!!) to make my decision, so I'm trying to reach out to as many people as possible or insight. 

To provide some more background about myself, I grew up moving around a lot between NYC and the Middle East and have spent the last two or so years since graduating college working as an intelligence analyst at a security consulting firm based in NYC (a position I might continue part time/remote during grad school). While I'm sure things will change as opportunities arise in grad school, I'll be aiming for the FSO track, but since that process is so long and uncertain, I will also look into openings at the UN and think tanks with a focus on the middle east, etc. I've always viewed journalism as a "dream job" of sorts, however, am fully aware of just how volatile the field is and that makes me wary. 

Right now, I think SIPA is ever so slightly in the lead for me due to its faculty (some of which are outside of SIPA that I made connections with while researching for my undergrad thesis), the course options and level of economics requirements, the ability to take courses across the university, better name recognition internationally, and the potential of doing an assistantship my second year. Being from NYC, I'm afraid I may contribute to the feeling that SIPA students just go about their lives in their individual NYC bubble, but if I do go down the SIPA path, I'm hoping to break out of that mold as much a possible, recognizing that it is an issue. 

What I am worried about regarding SIPA is I've heard the program much less personal and career services aren't as hands on. Finally, what continues to draw me in at SAIS is its DC location, which seems to be the clear consensus that it has a slight edge. At the end of the day, I have to decide if SIPA's advantages outweigh the potentially weaker community feel and not being in DC 

 

[GradSchoolGrad]

1 hour ago, Tariqks said:

@Mppirgradschool and @GradSchoolGrad firstly, thanks so much for taking the time to give such thorough input, it's really helpful! This is definitely a good dilemma to be in, however, the decision has become a lot more difficult to make due to the fact that I couldn't visit both programs in person and make face-to-face connections with other students/faculty. I have until May 8 (!!!) to make my decision, so I'm trying to reach out to as many people as possible or insight. 

To provide some more background about myself, I grew up moving around a lot between NYC and the Middle East and have spent the last two or so years since graduating college working as an intelligence analyst at a security consulting firm based in NYC (a position I might continue part time/remote during grad school). While I'm sure things will change as opportunities arise in grad school, I'll be aiming for the FSO track, but since that process is so long and uncertain, I will also look into openings at the UN and think tanks with a focus on the middle east, etc. I've always viewed journalism as a "dream job" of sorts, however, am fully aware of just how volatile the field is and that makes me wary. 

Right now, I think SIPA is ever so slightly in the lead for me due to its faculty (some of which are outside of SIPA that I made connections with while researching for my undergrad thesis), the course options and level of economics requirements, the ability to take courses across the university, better name recognition internationally, and the potential of doing an assistantship my second year. Being from NYC, I'm afraid I may contribute to the feeling that SIPA students just go about their lives in their individual NYC bubble, but if I do go down the SIPA path, I'm hoping to break out of that mold as much a possible, recognizing that it is an issue. 

What I am worried about regarding SIPA is I've heard the program much less personal and career services aren't as hands on. Finally, what continues to draw me in at SAIS is its DC location, which seems to be the clear consensus that it has a slight edge. At the end of the day, I have to decide if SIPA's advantages outweigh the potentially weaker community feel and not being in DC 

 

The way I see it this is matter of passion vs. security. I think it is clear that you have connections and opportunities for which you are passionate about at SIPA.

I would argue that from a job security perspective SAIS wins, and in a recession that is what I would care most about (especially since the SIPA pros are only marginally better than SAIS). Yes, SIPA support is unimpressively not robust in my opinion from what I experienced + heard second hand. Part of this has to do that SIPA is a program that covers many many many layers, IR, domestic policy, IDEV, and etc. Due to the lack of focus, its simply harder to support people. Also, by virtue of being in the Columbia system, they face massive amounts of bureaucracy that the more nimble SAIS doesn't. 

Also... good luck of breaking out of the NYC life mold. I have friends who tried at NYU schools (like former sorority girls who are normally accustom to being the social chairs of everything)... it simply didn't happen. 

Also, like I mentioned previously, granted SIPA does have some notable security stuff out there, you'll find a larger security community in SAIS (again granted it is more DC based). I think there is a lot to be said in power in the community that I find amusing that a lot of grad students don't care about going in but mention how much they missed it or glad they had it going out.

Edited May 5, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[went_away]

I don't think it matters all that much. For you, I might give the edge to SIPA as you already have a bit of a career in NYC and are familiar with how the job market there works (though to move up in security consulting you probably need some elite government intel, military, or law enforcement experience).

For overall job prospects amidst COVID I might give the edge to SAIS and DC (think DoD contracting). Honestly though neither one will do all that much for you - if you want to do the "FSO" track or similar (State/USAID/DoD civil service), what you really need is to be part of a preferential group (veteran, disabled veteran, military spouse). The MA degree is just a nice to have addition. There are many, many people in those so-called dream jobs with for-profit online degrees and spotty work histories, but who check the right box.

[GradSchoolGrad]

1 hour ago, went_away said:

I don't think it matters all that much. For you, I might give the edge to SIPA as you already have a bit of a career in NYC and are familiar with how the job market there works (though to move up in security consulting you probably need some elite government intel, military, or law enforcement experience).

For overall job prospects amidst COVID I might give the edge to SAIS and DC (think DoD contracting). Honestly though neither one will do all that much for you - if you want to do the "FSO" track or similar (State/USAID/DoD civil service), what you really need is to be part of a preferential group (veteran, disabled veteran, military spouse). The MA degree is just a nice to have addition. There are many, many people in those so-called dream jobs with for-profit online degrees and spotty work histories, but who check the right box.

to piggy back on what @went_away mentions about FSO or similar track, two fellowships that can give you a leg up on security area DC careers are Presidential Merit Fellowship and Boren Fellowship. Just something to think about no matter where you go to school.

Edited May 5, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad