Phd. Advice about universities to apply (International student)

[Raul]

Hello everybody.

I'm Raul and I'm new at this forum. In CollegeConfidential they advised me to visit this forum, and here I am.

I am currently doing a master degree in Spain (research oriented), and my plan is to do the Phd in USA (applying this fall). I am not sure about what universities to apply, and that's the reason I'm writing you. I have a 3/4 GPA (the Rackham School @ UMich did the mapping between the spanish system and the GPA), but in the Master degree that I am now doing I am going to rise this mark. My mark was the first one among the students in my bachelor, and I am going to publish some research work in which I have been working on last months.

The problem is that I haven't any real reference about what universities hope about the applicants. So, what do you think about my chances at UIUrbana-Champaign, Georgia Tech, UMich?

Another university that you would recommend me?

My field research are real time systems, and distributed systems...

I hope you could help me.

Thank you very much!

[Raul]

Let's see.

If you would have to choose five out the following:

MIT

UC-Berkeley

UI-Urbana-Champaign

UMich

UNC-Chapell Hill

Georgia Tech

UC-Irvine

I think that all those ones have a strong CS deparment, and particularly they are good at Real time and distributed systems, so...

What would you choose?

Any other that is not in the list?

Thanks!

[angusBF]

Hey, Raul

I am not sure how much help I will be, but I thought I would perhaps help get the discussion started.

I don't know a whole lot about real time systems work except for that yes, UNC-CH has a very good real time systems group. I know that because I did my undergrad there and applied there for graduate school. I also know that MIT has very strong distributed systems work. I know that because I was an intern there doing work in distributed systems (http://groups.csail.mit.edu/drl/wiki/index.php/Main_Page). So if you are interested in these two areas, I would definitely apply to MIT and UNC-CH. That's probably as much actual useful info I can give you here.

As for your stats and chances at acceptance...Well, top schools like MIT and Berkeley are very competitive when it comes to CS. For example MIT received over 2700 applications this year and schools of this caliber typically accept less than 5% of all applicants. So judge for yourself. I am fairly certain they get a load of applicants with perfect GPAs who apply there, so I would think it would be quite helpful for you to increase your GPA significantly. Don't get me wrong, GPA is not the only factor in an admissions decision as research, publications, and letters of recommendation are also crucially important. But I would say that a 3 out of 4 GPA is hardly competitive for a school like MIT or UC-Berkeley. UNC-Chapel hill, yes maybe, if you have good letters and research experience.

Aside from an improvement in GPA, I would say that research/publications are definitely a must for top schools like MIT or Berkeley. Usually people who get accepted there have at least one publication of some sort, conference or journal. Especially if you will be coming in with a research focused Masters degree in hand, it would look quite suspicious if you don't already have a few publications behind your belt. I think their expectations of you as a Masters degree holder will be higher in that respect.

And if you have good research contributions, good recommendation letters should hopefully flow out of that. You will usually need three letters to apply to most schools, but some schools will accept four or even more if you inquire. I submitted four for both MIT and UNC-CH, both accepted an extra one. Though you might have to ask how to go about submitting the extra letter. However, there is absolutely no use including an extra letter if you are not absolutely certain that that letter is (a) very strong and helpful for you and ( presents you and your potential from a different angle as opposed to all the other letters. If you are not certain that a letter from a professor will be strong or helpful to you, don't submit it. Depending on the school, the admissions committee might get annoyed at extra material that is not helpful given that they already have a ton of applications to process.

Finally, for some applicants the statement of purpose could become a significant part of an admissions decision. If you are coming in will less than perfect grades, that could likely be your situation. In that case, I recommend you spend a good deal of time looking through each respective school's project websites and find something you are genuinely excited and passionate about. For your statement to be convincing to the AdCom, especially for top schools, it *must* be sincere. They can sense an insincere letter from a mile away as many of them have been on admissions for years. So make sure you really identify the reasons you are attracted to the program and what makes you the perfect fit for them. This could be the deciding factor in your admissions. Also by you doing some of this research independently, it will give you a better idea of which of these schools you listed you would actually want to apply for. Because the quality of the research and the number of famous faculty members is not the only factor you will need to consider. For many people the overall "feel" of the department, location of the school, etc. could be equally as important. So even though getting opinions of others could be very useful, I think it is ultimately a really personal decision and only you will be able to decide best which school is right for you for whatever reasons.

I hope this was at least somewhat helpful and will aid you in your graduate application process.

Cheers,

angusBF

[Raul]

Thank you very much angusBF.

Firstly, now I have my mind clear about the research paper, if I want to get admitted I must publish all I have in mind.

Thank you for the UNC-CH and MIT info too.

The main problem I had is that I have no reference which I could use in order to measure my chances to get there, so your information has been very useful.

I hope more comments in order to decide which 5 universities to apply (within that list or not).

Do you think that applying 5 universities is a good number?

Cheers!

[angusBF]

Do you think that applying 5 universities is a good number?

Well, I would say that depends on which schools you choose to apply to.

If you apply to the top 5 CS schools (MIT, UC-Berkeley, or Stanford calibre), I would have to say *no* because that would be quite risky. You must have several "back-up" schools in case you are rejected. All these schools are very competitive and you would be putting all your eggs in one basket if you only apply there. Most people I know applied anywhere from 5-10 schools. So 5 is not a bad number per se, but you have to plan accordingly. Usually the rule of thumb is to apply to several schools you are fairly certain you match up to and are a very good fit for, several "back up schools" for which you are likely overqualified for, and a few schools which are very good because you could get lucky and get in anyway.

[Raul]

Ok, you are absolutely right.

Instead of applying to 5 universities, maybe I would have to apply to 6. For example:

I am going to apply MIT and UC-Berkeley as the top universities.(2)

UI-Urbana-Champaign, according to USNews and World report has a 69% total admissions. Well, this data is perhaps confusing, but I want to try there too. (1)

UMich has a very good department too and Ann Arbor seems to be a great city. (1)

So, in conclusion I must choose other two universities to apply, and following your advice, I will choose that two trying to ensure the admission (although perhaps this is much to say...)

This is being a very useful thread for me, because now I am almost sure about 4/6 universities, and I have the guidelines in order to choose the other two left.

Thank you again angusBF!

[explorer-c]

Ok, you are absolutely right.

Instead of applying to 5 universities, maybe I would have to apply to 6. For example:

I am going to apply MIT and UC-Berkeley as the top universities.(2)

UI-Urbana-Champaign, according to USNews and World report has a 69% total admissions. Well, this data is perhaps confusing, but I want to try there too. (1)

UMich has a very good department too and Ann Arbor seems to be a great city. (1)

So, in conclusion I must choose other two universities to apply, and following your advice, I will choose that two trying to ensure the admission (although perhaps this is much to say...)

This is being a very useful thread for me, because now I am almost sure about 4/6 universities, and I have the guidelines in order to choose the other two left.

Thank you again angusBF!

Generally all the top 10 univ are considered top universities and all of them has around 10% or less admission rate for PhD students. So that means, while UIUC and Gatech might be easier to get into than MIT (which is always a crap shoot), they're still pretty hard to get into. Umich is just outside the top 10 and I believe also has a low admission rate for PhD (~15% I think, still not an easy university by any measure). So again, plan your applications accordingly. Just FYI, the average GPA for the accepted PhD students at the top 10 schools always hover around 3.7-3.8, and they also have plenty of research experience on top of that. That's why even a 4.0 GPA is not a guarantee for admission at any of those schools.

[BKMD]

I think you need to apply to some lower ranked schools. If I may be blunt, I don't think you'll get into a school like MIT or Berkeley. It sounds like you will have a good application, but there are many people with even better applications who also get rejected from these schools. They're just very competitive. I would say, choose 1 of the very top schools to apply to (just in case), but I wouldn't waste your money applying to all of them.

Even schools like UIUC and UMich are very competitive. Go ahead and apply, but you should have other options open. Also, keep in mind that it is harder for international students to get in. For whatever reason, American schools favor American applicants, so the competition for you will be even harder unfortunately. And you should definitely try to get something published, because that will be expected of a student with a Masters degree.

Look at other schools in the top 50 and consider applying to a few of them that are not within the top 20. I would say most schools in the top 50 are quite good and relatively competitive. You mentioned UC Irvine - this would be good to apply to if they are good for your research area. I can't help you with that since I don't know anything about your area, but a good way to gauge which schools are good for your area is to look at the papers that are published at conferences in your field and see which schools the big authors are from.

[BKMD]

I should add - apply to as many schools as you can, since this will increase your chances of getting into at least one. There are so many variables that it's hard to predict where you might get in, so it's good to apply around (personally I didn't apply to many places, but looking back, I should have applied to more). The problem of course is that it is expensive, so budget wisely. The application fees vary a lot between the schools - for example, Stanford was $125 but Johns Hopkins was only $25.

[Raul]

Thank you all!

For me it is very important that information.

It is difficult to take a snapshot of what process admissions really is from Spain. I am reading webs, listening to spanish professors, but in the end it is difficult to figure out how it is.

Here in Spain is just completely different, so I think that my vision is fuzzy.

I'll take into account your words and I'll rethink the universities to apply. Thanks.

Perhaps I need to prepare the admissions faster. And in order to accomplish that I think that I am going to talk with my current advisor in order to ask for interesting departments in the USA (regarding my field research).

Cheers!

[scyrus]

My mark was the first one among the students in my bachelor,

Hm...not sure you did the conversion correctly. If you were the best among your peers, it would be really surprising if your GPA was only a 3.0/4.0.

UI-Urbana-Champaign, according to USNews and World report has a 69% total admissions.

Just FYI, that statistic is for general undergraduate admissions. Graduate admissions is an entirely different ball game and is department specific. I'd be willing to wager for Graduate CS admissions, UIUC probably has somewhere around a 10% acceptance rate. Or nothing nearly as high as 69% at the very least.

[Raul]

Hm...not sure you did the conversion correctly. If you were the best among your peers, it would be really surprising if your GPA was only a 3.0/4.0.

Hello Scyrus.

I encounter what you have pointed very interesting. I'm gonna to explain briefly my GPA.

In Spain, the grade system is different from USA. Actually, here GPA does not exist, they evaluate you from 0 to 10 points. In my grade system, I marked 7.1/10, and that was the best mark among my peers. I think that a girl marked nearly 8/10 years ago, but that is extremely difficult.

Then, my first doubt was how to map my grade system into yours. I wrote UMich, and UIUC in order to ask for that information. UIUC told me not to worry about the grade system conversion, and to concentrate on the other requirements. And Rackham School @UMich, did the conversion for me. Well, they told me that my mark is equivalent to a 3.0/4.0 GPA. That surprised me, because I am plenty confident that my mark here is Spain is very high, but....

I have the documents that justify my promotion place (1st like I told before), but it seems that the mapping prejudice me a lot, and I do not know what to do.

Currently, in the masters degree that I am doing, the grade system is also from 0 to 10, but the evaluation is based on research works etc. It is very different to the bachelor (it is much easier to rise a better final mark), and I am trying to rise above the 3.5 equivalent GPA. (In this way, I would have a mark for the bachelor, and another one for the Master).

Do you think that I must do something about my bachelor GPA, ask for mapping information in other places?

Do you think that the Master mark would have importance for them? (I'm planning to ask them this question too).

Finally, thanks for the UIUC admissions rate clarification.

Cheers!

[angusBF]

Well, they told me that my mark is equivalent to a 3.0/4.0 GPA. That surprised me, because I am plenty confident that my mark here is Spain is very high, but....

scyrus has a very good point about conversion mismatch. But I don't think it's unusual to see international students with very good credentials get accepted to top universities and still have a very poor American GPA equivalent. Just scan through the results posts on this forum, you will see quite a few international students posting their acceptances and stats with the GPA number being quite low on the 4.0 scale. So I think that graduate schools are perfectly aware of this situation given that they have so many international applicants every year and a decent number of them get accepted. So I would think they have already looked into how to "map" or judge an international student's transcript. Moreover, I'm fairly certain that graduate schools don't just look at the overall GPA as 3.0/4.0 for example, but actually look in very close detail at what courses you have taken and what grades you obtained in each as some courses are more important for the department than others. So like I said, you could spend some time trying to figure this out, but I think devoting the vast majority of your time and effort to research and publications would serve you best.

Do you think that the Master mark would have importance for them?

If the admissions committee sees your bachelor transcript and already decides that it is very strong, you have already proved to them that you are able to take Computer Science classes successfully. So I don't think your Masters transcript with classes will have such a strong impact on them unless you end up doing very poorly there. I think for someone who did not do well in their bachelor classes or is coming from a different background other than Computer Science a Masters transcript would have a much greater influence on the admissions committee. So I would say that they would mostly be expecting to see strong research contributions, i.e. publications, from you as a result of your Masters degree.

[Raul]

... but I think devoting the vast majority of your time and effort to research and publications would serve you best.

As always very useful your words angusBF. I am right now fully concentrated on my on-going research. But I will also put attention on the Master, in order to get a good mark.

This is very difficult, I am researching, the Master, the TOEFL preparation, I have to begin with the GRE (which for a non-native English speaker is difficult I think)....

But, no risk no glory!

Thank you all!

Cheers

[angusBF]

Raul,

Yes you should definitely keep focused on your Masters studies and not let your grades slip. When I said that those grades may not be the major factor in your admission, I did not mean that you should neglect them :-). You know what I mean. As for the TOEFL, yes you should prepare somewhat, but I wouldn't stress too much about that as your English seems pretty good to me. The TOEFL tests "light" English skills and conversation, so if you can communicate well already you should be just fine. As for the GRE, do your best on the verbal portion, but you should make sure you can get the highest possible score on the math portion as you are planning on going to a technical graduate school. The verbal score for admissions will mostly be used to make sure your English skills are adequate for an American university. Besides, some of the top schools like MIT CS don't even require GRE scores at all, though most do require them. I am just saying this to point out that the English score is mostly a formality and I would seriously doubt you would be denied admission because of it.

Cheers,

angusBF

[Raul]

angusBF

Thank you one more time. Regarding the listening, reading and writing sections of the TOEFL, maybe I could do it well. The Speaking section is more difficult for me since I can't speak English everyday. I'm planning to do the exam on July (after finishing the Master), so I figure out that I have time to prepare. Thanks for the encouragement. And about the GRE exam, I'll take into account your advices.

This thread has been very useful for me, so thank you all!

See you around here, and I hope I could help someone next time.

Cheers!