Choosing Biostats PhD: Michigan vs UPenn?

[sugarbeet]

17 minutes ago, Primadonna said:

I was ready to accept my Michigan offer today, but then I come back and check this thread and I have doubts again. I really liked the lab rotation idea too at Penn, although there's more faculty at Michigan I'm interested in than Penn.

 

I don't really have any uncertainty about wanting to work in genetics, I'd be really, really surprised if I winded up doing something else. I'm a little concerned about Michigan's program taking significantly longer than Penn's. Most Penn students finish in 4-5 years from a Bachelor's. I knew that Michigan's program would take longer but I didn't know that genetics students at Michigan took 6+ years. I've also heard qualms before this thread that Michigan's genetics reputation is on the decline. The first few posts convinced me that wasn't true but now I'm unsure again.

Genetics has changed substantially in the last few years. The reason that Michigan's reputation is on the decline is due to the lack of faculty working on the latest problems. >6+ years of graduation does seem to be a big concern. 

[bayessays]

I was not aware the UPenn got their students out so quickly.  The GSTP at Michigan requires essentially an extra year of genetics courses so you will be busy with coursework for the first 3 years I think, in addition to basically starting out doing research right away.  Also the second year statistics theory courses at Michigan are pretty intense, and I think you also have to take PhD genetics courses which are probably difficult for someone who isn't a biologist, but I'm just hypothesizing here.  But yes, Michigan's degree takes longer in general and I would take that into account.  Even outside of genetics, 6 years seems to be more common than 5, and I think for genetics 6-7 is the norm.

As for the first few replies in this thread, perhaps we worded the endorsement of Michigan too strongly.  Usually when we make recommendations like this, we are focused on optimizing for reputation/productivity of faculty, as these are the most objective measures and everything else is very personal.  I do think, objectively, that Michigan has way more faculty working in genetics and a lot of very good ones.  If you are looking for an academic career in genetics, the concentration of geneticists you'll interact with Michigan is a unique experience -- some of the professors like Zhou and Zollner are actually PhD geneticists who work on statistical stuff, which is rare to find - they take the genetics part very seriously.  Some alums in the past (not sure about recently) actually take jobs as genetics professors after graduation.

The quals at Michigan are going to be *significantly* harder than the ones at Penn, as they cover 2 years of statistical theory, rather than just the masters-level material.  One or two students a year usually fail and have to leave the program.

You're going to be getting a PhD from a top biostatistics program and in the worst-case scenario, you will have a lot of 6-figure industry jobs in a variety of fields open to you after graduation, so it may be worth it for you to choose Penn if these things about Michigan are scaring you away.  But if the question is only "who has the better genetics faculty," I think the recommendation still stands.

[ciabatta]

8 minutes ago, bayessays said:

I was not aware the UPenn got their students out so quickly.  The GSTP at Michigan requires essentially an extra year of genetics courses so you will be busy with coursework for the first 3 years I think, in addition to basically starting out doing research right away.  Also the second year statistics theory courses at Michigan are pretty intense, and I think you also have to take PhD genetics courses which are probably difficult for someone who isn't a biologist, but I'm just hypothesizing here.  But yes, Michigan's degree takes longer in general and I would take that into account.  Even outside of genetics, 6 years seems to be more common than 5, and I think for genetics 6-7 is the norm.

As for the first few replies in this thread, perhaps we worded the endorsement of Michigan too strongly.  Usually when we make recommendations like this, we are focused on optimizing for reputation/productivity of faculty, as these are the most objective measures and everything else is very personal.  I do think, objectively, that Michigan has way more faculty working in genetics and a lot of very good ones.  If you are looking for an academic career in genetics, the concentration of geneticists you'll interact with Michigan is a unique experience -- some of the professors like Zhou and Zollner are actually PhD geneticists who work on statistical stuff, which is rare to find - they take the genetics part very seriously.  Some alums in the past (not sure about recently) actually take jobs as genetics professors after graduation.

The quals at Michigan are going to be *significantly* harder than the ones at Penn, as they cover 2 years of statistical theory, rather than just the masters-level material.  One or two students a year usually fail and have to leave the program.

You're going to be getting a PhD from a top biostatistics program and in the worst-case scenario, you will have a lot of 6-figure industry jobs in a variety of fields open to you after graduation, so it may be worth it for you to choose Penn if these things about Michigan are scaring you away.  But if the question is only "who has the better genetics faculty," I think the recommendation still stands.

UPenn seems to place students in industry jobs very well. Heard they have a recent student who got an offer from Amazon that is over >310K per year. That is the highest that I've ever heard.

[bayessays]

 

6 minutes ago, ciabatta said:

UPenn seems to place students in industry jobs very well. Heard they have a recent student who got an offer from Amazon that is over >310K per year. That is the highest that I've ever heard.

$250k total comp was pretty standard 5 years ago for new-PhD data scientists at top tech companies, so this is not surprising to me, especially if he studied a field like causal inference which Penn is very strong in.  Honestly, even at low-ranked PhD programs, you will basically see all of their alums getting jobs at Google/Amazon/FB that will start at $250k+.

[ciabatta]

8 minutes ago, bayessays said:

 

$250k total comp was pretty standard 5 years ago for new-PhD data scientists at top tech companies, so this is not surprising to me, especially if he studied a field like causal inference which Penn is very strong in.  Honestly, even at low-ranked PhD programs, you will basically see all of their alums getting jobs at Google/Amazon/FB that will start at $250k+.

This one I heard hasn't graduated yet, this is why I am so impressed. UPenn allows students to do internship. Heard this student got a return offer after internship. He works on single cells and uses deep learning a lot for his dissertation work which might have helped.

[Euler17]

11 minutes ago, bayessays said:

I was not aware the UPenn got their students out so quickly.  The GSTP at Michigan requires essentially an extra year of genetics courses so you will be busy with coursework for the first 3 years I think, in addition to basically starting out doing research right away.  Also the second year statistics theory courses at Michigan are pretty intense, and I think you also have to take PhD genetics courses which are probably difficult for someone who isn't a biologist, but I'm just hypothesizing here.  But yes, Michigan's degree takes longer in general and I would take that into account.  Even outside of genetics, 6 years seems to be more common than 5, and I think for genetics 6-7 is the norm.

As for the first few replies in this thread, perhaps we worded the endorsement of Michigan too strongly.  Usually when we make recommendations like this, we are focused on optimizing for reputation/productivity of faculty, as these are the most objective measures and everything else is very personal.  I do think, objectively, that Michigan has way more faculty working in genetics and a lot of very good ones.  If you are looking for an academic career in genetics, the concentration of geneticists you'll interact with Michigan is a unique experience -- some of the professors like Zhou and Zollner are actually PhD geneticists who work on statistical stuff, which is rare to find - they take the genetics part very seriously.  Some alums in the past (not sure about recently) actually take jobs as genetics professors after graduation.

The quals at Michigan are going to be *significantly* harder than the ones at Penn, as they cover 2 years of statistical theory, rather than just the masters-level material.  One or two students a year usually fail and have to leave the program.

You're going to be getting a PhD from a top biostatistics program and in the worst-case scenario, you will have a lot of 6-figure industry jobs in a variety of fields open to you after graduation, so it may be worth it for you to choose Penn if these things about Michigan are scaring you away.  But if the question is only "who has the better genetics faculty," I think the recommendation still stands.

 

OP should ask Michigan directly about the quals, rumor has it they may be changing. 

I think the idea that Michigan stat genetics is facing a steep decline is a bit misguided. They have some strong junior faculty working in diverse areas.  Also, they have some nice recent hires, like Veera Baladandayuthapani, who doesn't strictly focus on genomics, but has done some really innovative work. 

[sugarbeet]

3 hours ago, Primadonna said:

I was ready to accept my Michigan offer today, but then I come back and check this thread and I have doubts again. I really liked the lab rotation idea too at Penn, although there's more faculty at Michigan I'm interested in than Penn.

 

I don't really have any uncertainty about wanting to work in genetics, I'd be really, really surprised if I winded up doing something else. I'm a little concerned about Michigan's program taking significantly longer than Penn's. Most Penn students finish in 4-5 years from a Bachelor's. I knew that Michigan's program would take longer but I didn't know that genetics students at Michigan took 6+ years. I've also heard qualms before this thread that Michigan's genetics reputation is on the decline. The first few posts convinced me that wasn't true but now I'm unsure again.

One advice I got from others is to look at the faculty's recent publications and see if you like their work. Their recent publications might be most close to what you will work on. Past reputation is certainly important, but the faculty's recent productivity is also important.

[StatsG0d]

On 4/11/2021 at 12:16 PM, sugarbeet said:

>6 years is crazy! most Biostatistics students finish in less than 5 years.

I think this is pretty department specific. At UNC, for example, quals are taken after the 2nd year, so I would say 6 years is probably the average for them. It's definitely also discipline-specific, too. Statgen requires a lot of computation / cluster computing, and this can be a serious detriment to the speed that one can finish a PhD. Waiting hours, perhaps days, for code to run and having to repeat the process is a huge slowdown.

@Primadonna are you trying to pursue an academic job? If so, then I feel like the extra year or so at Michigan will be worth the investment. If you're quite set on industry, then maybe UPenn is the better option/