want to get into chem grad school as bio major, lack p-chem, what to do?

[LastThreeYears]

i'm graduating in next year with a BS in biological sciences focused on biochemistry and molecular biology. however, i've found that the "chemistry" part of biochemistry is more interesting and easier to learn than the "bio" part. found most molecular biology class to be meaningless vocabulary crunching and detail memorization, made harder by being international student. labs also were not much better. this was in contrast to the year of organic chemistry and the labs which while challenging, was so in a way that made me think. i particularly enjoyed the introduction to IR and NMR spectroscopy and the synthesis problems. got A in the classes and B in the labs. mostly interested in analytical or organic chemistry, specifically small molecule markers for biological macromolecules but would be happy to work with any chemistry research with direct biotech application.

the problem is, because i made a mistake and took the wrong physics class, i can't take a physical chemistry class, so i'm worried that schools will think that i do not have the chemical background to go to graduate school in chemistry. i'm on a tight schedule and tight money so repeat 1 year is too much. is there anything i can do to prove that i am competent enough in chemistry to go to any graduate program? i don't care about ranking of the school since i do not want to go into academia, but would like the rigorous training that a PHD recieves.

[UnlikelyGrad]

i'm graduating in next year with a BS in biological sciences focused on biochemistry and molecular biology. however, i've found that the "chemistry" part of biochemistry is more interesting and easier to learn than the "bio" part. ...

the problem is, because i made a mistake and took the wrong physics class, i can't take a physical chemistry class, so i'm worried that schools will think that i do not have the chemical background to go to graduate school in chemistry. i'm on a tight schedule and tight money so repeat 1 year is too much. is there anything i can do to prove that i am competent enough in chemistry to go to any graduate program? i don't care about ranking of the school since i do not want to go into academia, but would like the rigorous training that a PHD recieves.

Didn't they make you take any p-chem at all? At my alma mater, the biochemistry majors took a "survey of p-chem" course (1 quarter as opposed to 1 year of the "real" stuff).

See, the problem is that you are really going to need thermodynamics to do what you want to do. Even if you took *some* p-chem, even a survey course, you would be a much better applicant. Check out your school's offerings and see if there's something that would allow you to get this background.

[LastThreeYears]

Didn't they make you take any p-chem at all? At my alma mater, the biochemistry majors took a "survey of p-chem" course (1 quarter as opposed to 1 year of the "real" stuff).

See, the problem is that you are really going to need thermodynamics to do what you want to do. Even if you took *some* p-chem, even a survey course, you would be a much better applicant. Check out your school's offerings and see if there's something that would allow you to get this background.

yes i can take a watered down "physical biochemistry" class in fall. it's alot weaker than real p-chem though i'm still taking it to gain experience. would taking the chemistry GRE and getting a high score on it prove my competence in chemistry though?

Edited June 10, 2010 by LastThreeYears

[UnlikelyGrad]

yes i can take a watered down "physical biochemistry" class in fall. it's alot weaker than real p-chem though i'm still taking it to gain experience. would taking the chemistry GRE and getting a high score on it prove my competence in chemistry though?

I can't remember the exact make-up of the chem GRE but I seem to recall that, while organic was the biggest chunk (~30%), p-chem weighed in at around 25%. So you're not going to get a good score without being up on your p-chem. You will need to know both thermodynamics and quantum mechanics. Note that your physical biochemistry class is going to be mostly thermo. Could you learn quantum on your own? Yes, but be warned, it's very math heavy and theoretical in nature. A lot of people have trouble with it in a regular classroom setting. It is probably the chem class that students struggle with both.

I would guess that you could get a reasonable score on the GRE (~60-70th percentile) but I doubt you could get 80th or better.

[LastThreeYears]

I can't remember the exact make-up of the chem GRE but I seem to recall that, while organic was the biggest chunk (~30%), p-chem weighed in at around 25%. So you're not going to get a good score without being up on your p-chem. You will need to know both thermodynamics and quantum mechanics. Note that your physical biochemistry class is going to be mostly thermo. Could you learn quantum on your own? Yes, but be warned, it's very math heavy and theoretical in nature. A lot of people have trouble with it in a regular classroom setting. It is probably the chem class that students struggle with both.

I would guess that you could get a reasonable score on the GRE (~60-70th percentile) but I doubt you could get 80th or better.

i got a tutor for quantum chemistry =) it should be OK. i'm just aiming for anything above a 70 to prove to schools that i'm competent. hope this works out. thanks alot!

[so47]

I would guess that you could get a reasonable score on the GRE (~60-70th percentile) but I doubt you could get 80th or better.

I agree with this, and even would go as far to say that she is being kind with her estimations. The Chem GRE is a really grueling test, that is notorious for full blown chem majors to do poorly on, especially domestic students. International students tend to score higher (mass generalization, I know) but they are also held to higher standers for that score because of it. Let's put it this way, I am a chem major who gets very high grades and in general am a very good standardized test taker, studied hard for the exam, and still I got 11% percentile on the Chem GRE's. That said, I also got into top 10 and 20 chemistry programs, so they obviously don't care that much about it. Going into the test, I was told in general that if you are a domestic student and get a 50% percentile on the Chem GRE, you are golden. Aiming for a 70% percentile may not be realistic.

My point is, definitely study for it since you are at a disadvantage without the chem background, but don't kill yourself over it. Most schools don't even require it. Of the 5 schools I applied to, only 2 of them required those scores. And since I was not happy with my score, I did not send it anywhere that didn't require it, since I felt it would only hurt me and it can't be held against your application if you don't submit them.

You mentioned that you did not care about ranking, and from experience it's the higher ranked chem schools that require the chem GRE. My honest advice would be to not bother with the chem GRE and focus on taking p-chem classes, maybe over the summer. That will mean more to a school than you sending them a test score they don't really care about. Especially because if they follow America Chemical Society guidelines, you may be required to have taken X amounts of courses in p-chem to enter the program.

Hope this helps!

[Biscotta]

At my school, incoming grad students take exams in all the subject areas (organic, inorganic, P chem, biochem or analytical). If you don't pass any of them, you end up in the undergrad class for a semester. It doesn't count toward the grad-level classes that you need to take but most people take 1, and some take 2. It isn't really a big deal.

I also did biochem as an undergrad and chem as a grad, although my research is very much biochem. My biochem major required two upper-level chem electives (organic and analytical), and I took a third (inorganic) to make myself look a bit stronger in chemistry. So I would recommend taking whatever chemistry you can fit in, but don't stress out specifically about P chem.

Then again, at my school, pre-reqs aren't strictly enforced (for undergrads or grads). If your school does enforce them, you could possibly talk to the professor about it. In my experience, professors are usually receptive to students who are genuinely interested in taking their class (and not just taking it because they "have to.") The P chem class might have you working a bit harder if you don't have the right pre-req but I would bet the professor will review anything that class covered that will be relevant, albeit probably at a faster pace than the original class.

[Eigen]

To add on, we had a biology major start with us last year.

He had a bit rougher of a time in the intro classes, but the school took him fine.

[applecat]

As mentioned in a few posts, non-chemistry majors can be admitted to programs; this was my case.

Actually, your story sounds very familiar to my own experience. I graduated with a biology degree in cellular/molecular biology. I too found that I enjoyed being able to apply chemistry to the biological systems that seemed interesting. I'm now in a group placed in the organic division, but I would truly label the group research as primarily bioorganic (synthesis of substrates/inhibitors for enzymes that are purified in our own lab, expressing new enzymes to use in asymmetric synthesis, etc).

I didn't have PChem when I was accepted, but I did have to take it during my first fall. I'm sure I wouldn't have done great on the GRE Chemistry subject test if I had taken it, which is why I opted not to.

If you have any other questions, let me know (as I hope I can help someone going through a process that brings up many questions, uncertainties, and any other odd things that come to mind).

-Applecat

[LastThreeYears]

Thanks to everyone for responding. I am currently taking physical biochemistry (mostly thermo and spectroscopy) due to it being the only "physical chemistry" class i have prerequisites for (the school of physical sciences strictly enforces all prerequisites). However I'm struggling in all of my biology classes; I've struggled in the past and even ended up with an F once, but I clung on to the idea of studying something biology related since I felt i knew nothing else, but now I've decided to move as far away from biology related subjects as possible since I found I knew nothing about biology either. Indeed, as I do more research on fluorescence markers, the more I dislike it. I'm also taking a materials class, and find it more applicable and compatible with my interests. I just want to do nothing related to biology anymore. Don't want to see a cell, hear about DNA, memorize a process or operate an optical microscope ever again.

Are there any programs that are interdisciplinary between chemistry and materials engineering? There are many such programs between physics and chemistry in chemical and materials physics, but those require far more prerequisites that i do not have, and the classes themselves are harder. materials engineering (at least at my current school) has much lower prerequisites to entry and lower requirements to graduate (1 quarter of introductory solid state physics, while the chemical physics program needs 3 quarters of "real" solid state physics). Is that generalized to all schools? If so, will the Chem GRE still be an asset?

Edited October 3, 2010 by LastThreeYears