Language Schmanguage

[goldielocks]

[Removed at Poster's Request]

Has anyone else successfully learned a language independently? Or is anyone else in a similar boat? I ask because it's always nice to share tips, but also because this board seems to be dead as of late!

Hope you are all enjoying your summer.

[American in Beijing]

[Removed at Poster's Request]

Has anyone else successfully learned a language independently? Or is anyone else in a similar boat? I ask because it's always nice to share tips, but also because this board seems to be dead as of late!

Hope you are all enjoying your summer.

I'm doing guided self-instruction for Classical Chinese this summer. I have a tutor and we go over the translations of the texts that I read to make sure I actually understand what they mean. I'm hoping to test out of the language requirement so I can focus more on History courses and less on language. I was an East Asian Studies major in undergrad, meaning I had more language classes and less history, so I really want to be able to devote almost all of my time to perfecting my historical methodology . . . in other words, figuring out what historical methodology actually is, lol.

Speaking as a person who has studied 6 languages before (but only 2-3 to the point where I would consider myself successful), I would strongly recommend not self-studying a language in which you have no prior formal background. You could easily give yourself a bad foundation in the language, and it will end up hurting you in the end when you're behind the other students in intermediate or upper-level language classes. If you don't want to pay for private lessons, or take a course at a community college, I would spend the summer working on French. It's a whole lot easier to self-study a language that you already have a basic foundation in. Plus, you can do "fun things" in French like watching French online videos or listening to French music, and it will actually be beneficial. But if you do them in German when all you can say is "Ich heisse Mark," it's just going to be a waste of time.

Just my 2 cents! Good luck this summer!

[goldielocks]

I'm doing guided self-instruction for Classical Chinese this summer. I have a tutor and we go over the translations of the texts that I read to make sure I actually understand what they mean. I'm hoping to test out of the language requirement so I can focus more on History courses and less on language. I was an East Asian Studies major in undergrad, meaning I had more language classes and less history, so I really want to be able to devote almost all of my time to perfecting my historical methodology . . . in other words, figuring out what historical methodology actually is, lol.

Speaking as a person who has studied 6 languages before (but only 2-3 to the point where I would consider myself successful), I would strongly recommend not self-studying a language in which you have no prior formal background. You could easily give yourself a bad foundation in the language, and it will end up hurting you in the end when you're behind the other students in intermediate or upper-level language classes. If you don't want to pay for private lessons, or take a course at a community college, I would spend the summer working on French. It's a whole lot easier to self-study a language that you already have a basic foundation in. Plus, you can do "fun things" in French like watching French online videos or listening to French music, and it will actually be beneficial. But if you do them in German when all you can say is "Ich heisse Mark," it's just going to be a waste of time.

Just my 2 cents! Good luck this summer!

Thanks for the advice! I am currently working on French and was planning on getting into German whenever I felt ready, but I may just wait until my lessons begin this fall.

[DrFaustus666]

Thanks for the advice! I am currently working on French and was planning on getting into German whenever I felt ready, but I may just wait until my lessons begin this fall.

I agree that some formal background is necessary, but it need not be a LOT of formal background.

I had one semester of German as an undergraduate, and taught myself the rest --- enough such that now I'm a graduate student in German, where all classes are taught in German, average reading is about 100 pages per week, and each class requires a 10 to 30 page term paper, all in German.

It did take long time to get to that level. Four years in college would have been a lot easier and faster.

John

[chickadee21]

goldielocks, are able to take any summer courses? If you live in a city, you might want to check out whether the Goethe Institute or the Alliance Francaise is in your area - I took night courses in German the past year at the Goethe Institute, and my German has really improved. Even one class before school starts in the fall could be a big help. I'd especially recommend a Reading Knowledge class in French or German - those classes are usually taught in English, but they give you a really good knowledge of the grammar and help build your vocab. Good luck!

[goldielocks]

goldielocks, are able to take any summer courses? If you live in a city, you might want to check out whether the Goethe Institute or the Alliance Francaise is in your area - I took night courses in German the past year at the Goethe Institute, and my German has really improved. Even one class before school starts in the fall could be a big help. I'd especially recommend a Reading Knowledge class in French or German - those classes are usually taught in English, but they give you a really good knowledge of the grammar and help build your vocab. Good luck!

Thanks! I am actually unable to take summer courses due to employment obligations. But my French is coming back pretty quickly (thankfully, I studied it a few years ago). I was sad, too, because the community college in my city offers non-credit language classes that meet twice a week for only $120. Bummer!

[goldielocks]

[Removed at Poster's Request]

Nonetheless, is there some way I can demonstrate my proficiency in each language before sending in my apps to PhD programs? For instance, is there a standardized test that most PhD programs will accept? I just want to prove that I am (going to be) capable of conducting research in my two languages.
Many of my potential programs say that they expect students to demonstrate proficiency before enrolling in the PhD program.

Forgive me if this is nonsensical. Advice is appreciated!

Edited January 17, 2013 by Eigen

[JustChill]

I think your best bet is to use next summer for an immersion or intensive summer language program, such as Middlebury or Indiana. I did that twice, and no one has questioned my language preparation. I doubt any proficiency test from a third party is going to do much for PhD admissions. Many applicants have spent years studying the language(s); very often studying abroad.

[goldielocks]

I think your best bet is to use next summer for an immersion or intensive summer language program, such as Middlebury or Indiana. I did that twice, and no one has questioned my language preparation. I doubt any proficiency test from a third party is going to do much for PhD admissions. Many applicants have spent years studying the language(s); very often studying abroad.

Thank you. This is something I have only briefly looked into. I guess I'll be devoting some more time to figuring out the financial logistics of something like that.

[DrFaustus666]

Alright, so I am taking French & German (both just intro courses) this fall, along with my full MA courseload. Yes, I am crazy for doing this. I have already gnashed my teeth and furiously contemplated whether or not it will be worth it, and I finally decided that yes, it will be. (I study the Great War.)

So, here is an additional question that I was hoping you all could help me with. I have no French or German listed on my undergraduate transcript, because I was unfocused and took a random language which is not helpful to my area of specialization. However, I am planning to apply to PhD programs, with applications going out next fall. This means that by the time I am sending out apps, I will only have two semesters of each language listed on my transcript. I am planning to try to take some more advanced language classes next summer, however.

Nonetheless, is there some way I can demonstrate my proficiency in each language before sending in my apps to PhD programs? For instance, is there a standardized test that most PhD programs will accept? I just want to prove that I am (going to be) capable of conducting research in my two languages.

Many of my potential programs say that they expect students to demonstrate proficiency before enrolling in the PhD program.

Forgive me if this is nonsensical. Advice is appreciated!

I don't know about French, but in German there are several internationally accepted examinations you can take (for a hefty fee of course). The easiest is the DaF (Germany's equivalent of the TOEFL), and the most difficult is the Grosse Sprachdiplom, the passing of which I'd put on a par with earning maybe a 550 to 600 on the GRE Verbal in English.

[goldielocks]

I don't know about French, but in German there are several internationally accepted examinations you can take (for a hefty fee of course). The easiest is the DaF (Germany's equivalent of the TOEFL), and the most difficult is the Grosse Sprachdiplom, the passing of which I'd put on a par with earning maybe a 550 to 600 on the GRE Verbal in English.

Good to know, thank you!

[American in Beijing]

I think your best bet is to use next summer for an immersion or intensive summer language program, such as Middlebury or Indiana. I did that twice, and no one has questioned my language preparation. I doubt any proficiency test from a third party is going to do much for PhD admissions. Many applicants have spent years studying the language(s); very often studying abroad.

I second JustChill's suggestion of the summer immersion program. However, you're going to only be able to choose one of the two languages that way. What I would suggest is actually taking a year off and enrolling yourself in classes at a German university. They're free (well, except for the student activities fee, but that's at MOST 300 Euros). And the German government offers stipends for foreign students as well if you apply to the DAAD. You can even take French classes there on the side.

It won't be a pleasant experience and you'll have to work your ass off, but no one would ever question your ability to handle academic material in German afterwards. If you do decide to go, I would recommend trying to go to one of the universities on the Eastern side. The standard of living is lower (meaning SUPER cheap rent and produce).

[goldielocks]

I second JustChill's suggestion of the summer immersion program. However, you're going to only be able to choose one of the two languages that way. What I would suggest is actually taking a year off and enrolling yourself in classes at a German university. They're free (well, except for the student activities fee, but that's at MOST 300 Euros). And the German government offers stipends for foreign students as well if you apply to the DAAD. You can even take French classes there on the side.

It won't be a pleasant experience and you'll have to work your ass off, but no one would ever question your ability to handle academic material in German afterwards. If you do decide to go, I would recommend trying to go to one of the universities on the Eastern side. The standard of living is lower (meaning SUPER cheap rent and produce).

This is something I had not even considered. Thank you! I'll have to look into that.

[chickadee21]

goldielocks, the Goethe Institute offers proficiency exams at different levels - see here for the different exams: http://www.goethe.de/lrn/prj/pba/bes/enindex.htm It looks like anyone can sign up to take the exams - it's not limited to Goethe Institute students. I didn't take any of the exams, so I don't know how difficult they are, but I'm sure it'd be a plus on your application.

Edited July 19, 2010 by chickadee21

[DrFaustus666]

goldielocks, the Goethe Institute offers proficiency exams at different levels - see here for the different exams: http://www.goethe.de/lrn/prj/pba/bes/enindex.htm It looks like anyone can sign up to take the exams - it's not limited to Goethe Institute students. I didn't take any of the exams, so I don't know how difficult they are, but I'm sure it'd be a plus on your application.

These are the tests I was referring to in my post above.

There are about 6 or 7 different tests. I've taken two of them and passed one. The DaF (Deutsch als Fremdsprache, German as a Foreign Lanugage) is probably the easiest, though it's none too easy; many German universities accept it as proof that you know German well enough to attend university classes in any subject you're otherwise qualified to take, alongside native Germans, where the entire class is taught in German. It costs $200.

The GSD (Grosse Sprachdiplom) costs $400, is VERY long and difficult, and those who pass it speak read write and understand German at a very advanced level, indeed, better than some adult native speakers, at least as far as vocabulary is concerned.

Edited July 19, 2010 by DrFaustus666

[apoc64]

I have some similar questions and comments about languages.  I am planning to eventually learn French and German.  Currently, I am focusing on Spanish, as I will be doing a paper this fall where I hope to use Spanish sources.  I had 3 years of Spanish in high school, and learned some as a kid as well.  I'm learning it much faster on my own than I ever did in a formal (non-emersion) setting.  I've looked into some basic French and it seems easy and grammatically identical to Spanish.  I did 15 free lessons of Learn French with Alexa podcast, and I plan to subscribe to that combined with some books like 501 Verbs, ect.  I think with a Spanish background, I don't really need any formal training in French.

I think I may do an immersion in German next year.

How hard are language tests in grad school?  What format are they?  What are some language experiences people have had in grad school?

[JustChill]

This seems like a very vague question, but if you're talking about your primary research language, you'll find that history grad students (and their advisors) are fluent in their primary language, and then have reading knowledge of at least one more. Many have spent long periods abroad studying the languages. I was personally somewhat surprised at how important official and documented (i.e. not really pod casts) language training is for PhD admissions at the "top" programs (for non-US history fields). I spent all my undergrad years studying one language -- a difficult and somewhat rare language -- but then was told that my lack of a second language was one of the primary deficiencies of my profile. Thus, I ended up spending a few months studying the second language in Europe after my BA before I could bring my profile up to par with current grad students in the departments where I was applying.

Bottom line, I strongly suggest you email those professors with whom you're interested in working and ask them for advice on language preparation for their programs. That'll give you the most clear idea of what you need to have to be competitive.

[lifetimestudent]

This year I was working and applying to grad schools, so one of the major tasks I set for myself was to learn another language--in my case it happened to be Russian. I mostly picked it up without any instruction, and we shall see how well it turns out when I start taking regular language classes in the fall. In the process I decided that the most important element of all is simply the acquisition of vocabulary. That's why I ended up actually building an iPhone app to help me study and learn as many vocabulary words as possible. It's available now on the app store (FlashCards++) and I have found it to be incredibly helpful. Over the past 6 weeks since I started using the app I have been able to study over 3000 total words in Russian & German which I have picked up this year. My real goal which spurred the development of this app is the ability to keep my proficiency even if I am not reading the language for 3 hours every day. I decided that the key is the "spaced repetition" that was pioneered by programs like SuperMemo. In reality, languages are the most important thing for us as history students. Without the languages, none of us could do the primary research which sets us apart from others with an interest in our topics of specialization.

[mightier]

How hard are language tests in grad school? What format are they? What are some language experiences people have had in grad school?

I did my master's instead of a final year of undergrad school. I had two semesters of German instruction plus a summer abroad in Berlin plus an intensive course designed to get us through the German exam. The exams aren't a joke (at least mine wasn't). We had two pages from a German source text talking about taxation policy in the 17th century. So, despite having a decent vocabulary, I had to look up a lot of words that either weren't commonly used or were not part of the language anymore.

I think I managed to get about a page through the translation and I had done more than anybody else. I passed.

From what I've heard though, the German exam is tougher than the other language exams simply because German is a dense language. A friend of mine who was taking his Italian exam steamrolled through it in about an hour.

Ultimately it depends on the grader. I know people that failed a translation exam because they missed one or two words, which is absurd. The whole notion of a translation exam for history students is silly. The test should be about comprehension, not about how accurately you can translate from one language to another ... which, you know, is a whole different profession.

I'm sure you will quickly find out which exams (and graders) are toughest in your program once you get there.

[DrFaustus666]

I did my master's instead of a final year of undergrad school. I had two semesters of German instruction plus a summer abroad in Berlin plus an intensive course designed to get us through the German exam. The exams aren't a joke (at least mine wasn't). We had two pages from a German source text talking about taxation policy in the 17th century. So, despite having a decent vocabulary, I had to look up a lot of words that either weren't commonly used or were not part of the language anymore.

I think I managed to get about a page through the translation and I had done more than anybody else. I passed.

From what I've heard though, the German exam is tougher than the other language exams simply because German is a dense language. A friend of mine who was taking his Italian exam steamrolled through it in about an hour.

Ultimately it depends on the grader. I know people that failed a translation exam because they missed one or two words, which is absurd. The whole notion of a translation exam for history students is silly. The test should be about comprehension, not about how accurately you can translate from one language to another ... which, you know, is a whole different profession.

I'm sure you will quickly find out which exams (and graders) are toughest in your program once you get there.

I can only speak for the University of Maryland. I am a (native speaker of English) graduate student in German there, and have tutored a number of graduate students who were preparing for departmental language proficiency tests.

The tests seem pretty easy to me ... but on the other hand, to expect students to pass them after two or three "intense" semesters is asking a LOT.

You will very quickly find out what's expected of you, but I think it's safer to err on the side of learning too much rather than learning too little. And yes, translation from German is probably more difficult than most of the Romance languages, because German syntax can be so convoluted--and because Post-WW-2 German is changing so rapidly (so many English words are flooding the language) that many Germans complain that their mind thinks, for example, Das Know-How before it thinks Die Fähigkeit.

The point is, many books written only 50 or 60 years ago use words that already sound faintly quaint or old-fashioned, and may not be normally used by the native German teacher under which you take your 2 or 3 semesters of German.

Edited September 11, 2010 by DrFaustus666

[Comet7777]

Luckily Spanish was my first language and English my second. This allowed for my Spanish language requirement exam to be easy compared to non-Native speakers. I'm looking at PhD programs and I know I will have to join you guys and tackle this issue with Portuguese. So thanks for the tips so far.

[radagast]

I've actually been doing some French language training via Carnegie Mellon's Open Learning Initiative. https://oli.web.cmu.edu/jcourse/webui/portal.do They have French 1 and 2 classes online, for free, and I have been supplementing that material with a couple of workbooks. I think that if you want to learn to actually speak the French language without a flaw, you should probably take a class. However, if you need it for translation/writing reasons, tthen the course should be pretty helpful. As I have a romance language background, once I learned a couple of the grammatical rules, the language started to become much more obvious to me. However, if you are not so good with languages, you can always take a class at your local community college.

[Derfasciti]

I'm currently trying to teach myself Russian. I just started a few days ago but now I've got a pretty fair grasp on the alphabet. It's a start.