I/O Psych vs Organizational Behavior vs Social Psych PhD Programs?

[i/o hopeful]

Hi all,

I had initially thought I wanted to apply to I/O programs this upcoming cycle, but am starting to wonder if Organizational Behavior or Social psych programs might be a better fit. My interests mainly lie in decision making--- personality/other factors that influence decisions, and also the way working in groups influences individual behavior. I know it's up to me to really narrow down my interests and do my research of looking at the profs at different schools, but I'd really like to get a better understanding on how these 3 different kinds of PhD programs (I/O, OB, Social) vary at the most basic level.

Specifically:

1) Are the three equally competitive, or are certain ones (I'm thinking Social since more people apply) harder than others? Along those lines, do they look for different strengths in their candidates? I have really strong test scores/grades/quant background, but am a little light on solid psych research experience. While I've worked in labs in undergrad during summers and did a honors senior thesis, that work was split among several labs, and I don't have papers or anything aside from my thesis (and the poster from it was presented at the undergrad research conference at my school). I'm two years out of school and my current job is as a lab manager, but in a completely unrelated field (I had thought I wanted to do med school, so I'm in a "hard science" lab).

2) Do the different degrees act differently in terms of positions post-grad school? Is one valued more highly than the others? I'm not dead-set on academia, so the way they translate to industry is somewhat important to me.

If anyone has any input at all, I'd really appreciate it!

[socialpsych]

I didn't look into I/O programs at all myself, but I can try to answer your questions below with respect to social vs. OB.

Take this with a grain of salt, but the one thing I heard about I/O is that it's not as "current" a field as OB -- that the field of social psych (especially applied to organizations, but also basic research) is moving more and more into OB departments. But I'm sure others will be able to advise you better.

My interests mainly lie in decision making--- personality/other factors that influence decisions, and also the way working in groups influences individual behavior.

You may also want to look at marketing programs -- less so for the "working in groups" stuff, but a lot of decision making work is now done in marketing departments. Or, if you think OB is a better fit, you could always look for programs where research collaborations with marketing profs are also possible.

1) Are the three equally competitive, or are certain ones (I'm thinking Social since more people apply) harder than others?

Yes, social is generally harder than OB (at least at the level of top programs in both fields).

Along those lines, do they look for different strengths in their candidates?

Depends on the OB program. The ones that are most similar to psych are the ones that (1) are more basic (as opposed to applied) and (2) have a clear separation between micro and macro levels of OB. Also, social psych programs are definitely very basic-oriented. At some OB programs (not all!) it might hurt you to say that you are not interested in field work, but at social programs it will DEFINITELY hurt you to sound too applied, or even to mention that you are also applying to OB or I/O.

Along the same lines, any background having to do with business (either coursework/research or industry experience) will look much better on an OB application than a social psych one, as you might imagine.

I have really strong test scores/grades/quant background, but am a little light on solid psych research experience. While I've worked in labs in undergrad during summers and did a honors senior thesis, that work was split among several labs, and I don't have papers or anything aside from my thesis (and the poster from it was presented at the undergrad research conference at my school). I'm two years out of school and my current job is as a lab manager, but in a completely unrelated field (I had thought I wanted to do med school, so I'm in a "hard science" lab).

I think being light on psych research experience will be equally bad for you at both types of programs. Therefore, it might be less of a problem for OB just because those programs are sometimes less competitive. Either way, your lab manager job is not totally worthless -- be explicit about anything your current job has in common with psych research. And if you don't know, it might be worth sitting down with a psych grad student and just comparing notes on what your daily schedules are generally like. I'm sure you will find commonalities.

2) Do the different degrees act differently in terms of positions post-grad school? Is one valued more highly than the others? I'm not dead-set on academia, so the way they translate to industry is somewhat important to me.

In academia, social psych translates better into an OB job than an OB degree translates into a psych job, though both are possible. Both are also more difficult than just having the degree in the appropriate field in the first place: social psych PhDs more often end up getting OB postdocs to help them transition into business school settings, which is not as necessary for OB PhDs who already have experience teaching MBA courses. So, in terms of flexibility within academia, social psych will serve you better (though both grad stipends and professor salaries are often lower in psych departments than in business schools, if that matters to you!). Outside academia, my guess is just that they lead to different things -- for example, I know someone who is going into an analyst type job in an HR department, which seems like a job where an OB degree would be better than a psych degree. I'm guessing an OB degree is better received in jobs focused on management and organizational functioning whereas a social psych degree is better for non-management-related jobs. But I'm totally guessing based on the little I know about the experiences of recent grads from my own program (I know virtually nothing about industry job prospects for social psych PhDs).

Would be happy to talk more about this via PM if you have questions that seem too specific for the board. Best of luck!

Edited July 15, 2010 by socialpsych

[i/o hopeful]

Thanks so much for your detailed response! This isn't the first time I've heard I/O be called a "dying breed", so it's interesting that you make this point as well-- are there any I/O people out there that can speak to its defense? When I started looking into I/O programs, I was surprised that there really aren't all that many, so that was somewhat of a warning sign to me, but I figured it might also just mean it was a niche field.

Good suggestion too with how to frame my lab manager job-- I figured I would try my best to use it as a way to show I really understand the research process. By application time, I think I should have 1 or 2 papers where I'll be listed as an author (probably 3rd author). Do you think this is something that will be really helpful for me on my application, or sort of just a neutral thing (they will be papers in the field of biomaterials)?

[peterrr]

Thanks so much for your detailed response! This isn't the first time I've heard I/O be called a "dying breed", so it's interesting that you make this point as well-- are there any I/O people out there that can speak to its defense? When I started looking into I/O programs, I was surprised that there really aren't all that many, so that was somewhat of a warning sign to me, but I figured it might also just mean it was a niche field.

Good suggestion too with how to frame my lab manager job-- I figured I would try my best to use it as a way to show I really understand the research process. By application time, I think I should have 1 or 2 papers where I'll be listed as an author (probably 3rd author). Do you think this is something that will be really helpful for me on my application, or sort of just a neutral thing (they will be papers in the field of biomaterials)?

I'll answer this, having applied to both I/O and OB programs last cycle.

1. If you're looking for a job in academia, ask yourself whether you want to teach MBA students or Psych students. These are completely different types of audience, with the former being less interested in research and generally more interested in learning practical things that they can apply in the business setting. If you want to teach in the business school, go for OB. I've been told by a well-respected I/O professor from a top I/O school that all of her placements have been in the business school, simply because the academic job market for I/O right now isn't that great. Also, there is quite a big pay disparity between psych professors and business professors.

2. If you want to have the flexibility of pursuing an industry career afterwards, you're much better off with an I/O degree as opposed to OB. Almost half of the graduates in I/O end up in the industry afterwards (I'm quoting this from a study; I can PM you the source if you're interested in further reading). If you're interested with a career in management consulting, human resources, or organizational development, definitely go for I/O than OB. I don't think OB greatly emphasizes training in traditional I-topics such as recruitment, selection and validation, performance appraisals, training, etc. You will get a lot of 'applied' skills in I/O. Also, my understanding is that in some OB programs, the discipline is geared more toward theoretical (basic) research, whereas the tradition in I/O is a scientist-practitioner model.

I applied to both, but ended up choosing OB simply because after earning my masters, I realized that I wasn't very much interested in the I-side, and really did not want to go back to corporate. However, if you are undecided between academia and industry, I would go to a top I/O program that has a record of placing their graduates in top business schools and top consulting firms (e.g. Maryland, Penn State, Michigan State, Bowling Green, etc.)

Good luck! PM me if you have any more questions.

[iopsych]

Thanks so much for your detailed response! This isn't the first time I've heard I/O be called a "dying breed", so it's interesting that you make this point as well-- are there any I/O people out there that can speak to its defense? When I started looking into I/O programs, I was surprised that there really aren't all that many, so that was somewhat of a warning sign to me, but I figured it might also just mean it was a niche field.

Good suggestion too with how to frame my lab manager job-- I figured I would try my best to use it as a way to show I really understand the research process. By application time, I think I should have 1 or 2 papers where I'll be listed as an author (probably 3rd author). Do you think this is something that will be really helpful for me on my application, or sort of just a neutral thing (they will be papers in the field of biomaterials)?

what do you mean by it being a dying breed? The reason there are not that many I/O programs is probably because the field itself is rather new. That would be like calling human factors a dying breed because there are very few human factors programs. I/O really wasn't much of a field until after world war II, whereas social psych has been around for much longer.

Could you elaborate a little more on what the person meant when saying it was a dying breed, from what I have seen it is more the opposite, a lot of schools are starting I/O programs.

One plus you have if you want to go into academia with an I/O degree is you can bounce back and forth between business schools and psychology departments. I think it would be rather unlikely that a person with a social psych. degree could get a job in a business school and same for an OB degree in a psych school. You also have the option of going applied in a field that is still hiring, even now, in the economic bind our country finds itself in.

[socialpsych]

I think it would be rather unlikely that a person with a social psych. degree could get a job in a business school

This is simply untrue. Take a look at the OB/management and orgs faculty at schools like Stanford, Chicago, Kellogg, Duke. PLENTY of psych PhDs -- probably the majority of the faculty at some of these schools.

[i/o hopeful]

what do you mean by it being a dying breed? The reason there are not that many I/O programs is probably because the field itself is rather new. That would be like calling human factors a dying breed because there are very few human factors programs. I/O really wasn't much of a field until after world war II, whereas social psych has been around for much longer.

Could you elaborate a little more on what the person meant when saying it was a dying breed, from what I have seen it is more the opposite, a lot of schools are starting I/O programs.

The two people I mainly remember talking about I/O as a diminishing field were, admittedly, OB professors. One was newly minted (social psych background), and the other has been a professor for quite some time. The younger one pretty much said he had no experience or contact with anyone in I/O, and the more tenured professor said that nowadays, the bulk of the research was moving over into OB. Perhaps he meant that I/O is becoming more applied than research based (or maybe more masters program heavy vs phd level)? He also made it sound like there used to be a ton of places offering I/O programs, but now the number is decreasing. However, their opinion may well be just because they are in OB and so see themselves as the better option.....

[PsychPhD]

I cannot speak to I/O's relative growth to Social and OB programs (most academics can barely see outside their research specialization, let alone get an accurate grasp on their field in relation to others), but I can assure you that from both a demands and supply perspective, I/O psychology is a successful and vibrant field. Not only do I see this as a professional, but there is evidence to support it:

http://www.siop.org/tip/backissues/july04/05rogelberg.aspx

"By examining the data, it is evident that there is a substantial growth in the number of I-O and organizational psychology graduate programs. Over the 18-year span, there was found to be a 47.7% increase in doctoral programs overall and a 221.7% increase in MA/MS programs overall."

Granted, this is not up-to-date info, but it is highly improbable that such substantial growth would have time to slow down, plateau and drop-off in six years

[Zencarrot]

Apologies for raising this thread up from the dead, but I wanted to comment and echo Peterrr's response. I suspect others may be facing the same dilemma as the OP and this thread may be useful to them.

Having applied to both I/O and OB programs this year I have done a lot of research comparing both kinds of programs and came to a similar conclusion as Peterrr. I/O is more flexible in terms of career prospects in the sense that you can pursue a career as a professor in a business school or psychology department, or pursue a career in industry. The scientist-practitioner model of teaching is what allows this flexibility.

OB programs do not necessarily put an emphasis on basic research. OB by nature is an applied field and much of the research conducted by these scholars is done so with the intention of the results having practical implications. OB programs typically emphasize training students in research and sometimes teaching. There is little to no emphasis on training in tools that can be directly applied to industry, and there are typically no internships offered in industry in these programs.

In general, I think that the topics researched by I/O and OB scholars overlaps substantially, (yes, some OB scholars do even focus on the "I" aspect of research), but the means of training PhD students differs substantially.

I/O is not a dying field, it is a new and burgeoning one. There have been substantial developments in the field of I/O psychology that are extremely applicable to industry - I/O psychologists just haven't been very successful at convincing managers to use these tools.

I realize this response likely does not help the OP in any way, but I hope it will answer questions that others may have.

[Carolyn_D]

You guys had very informative info, thanks! I was wondering, however, do you guys know of any graduate programs (either Masters or Doctorates) that are through psychology departments but also pertain to marketing type off in terms of behavior and decision making? A lot of programs I have found are just PhDs through marketing or business departments. Advice??

[yubby]

carolyn: i'm no expert, but I'm going to say social psychology programs are your best bet for that type of research, theres a huge variety of research areas in social

[socialpsych]

Carolyn, one place to start might be the JDM preconference page for the SPSP conference. The profs named on those pages do JDM-related work, and several of them and their collaborators (whom you can track down looking at the individual profs' CVs) are in psych departments. Good luck!

[benjamin.gera]

Hi. I've read the comments that talk about how I/O is better than OB for industry, because it has more applied learning tools involved. But, what if you have the chance to go to the best business schools in the country for OB programs (e.g., Harvard) vs. a top I/O program? Yes, I see that the I/O programs are scientist-practitioner, so there is that advantage to the I/O program, but doesn't a PhD in Organizational Behavior from Harvard or Stanford have that amazing WOW effect? While schools like Michigan State have great I/O programs, I don't know that industry professionals are so aware of that reputation. So, what do you guys think? What if you are equally interested in industry and research and you have the chance to go to either the best OB programs (Ivy League schools) or the best I/O programs (not Ivy league schools). What do you choose?

[BeingThere]

Benjamin.gera:

 

You will be working during grad (PhD) school.  The CV you build up during that time will determine your fit or lack of fit for any postgrad job.  If you get a degree from Harvard on a lot of research related to group dynamics and apply for a job related to selection, then the Harvard degree might have limited impact on whether you're hired.  If you plan to go into academe, the school you got your degree at might matter more than the work you did while at that school (as long as you were highly productive.)

 

No one controls that much of their future.  You can make an informed choice, but in the end, countless variables beyond your control are going to shape where you end up after grad school.  Find your research interest(s) and apply to programs that will allow you to pursue them.  The most marketable degree -- between OB and I/O -- is the degree held by the person who is most effective at networking, is a hard worker, is smart, has a great CV, has good ideas, and is productive.  Beyond that, the difference between OB, I/O, and social boils down to whether one goes into industry or academe.  But caution should be used in planning a specific trajectory.  I know people who headed toward industry only to find that they prefer academe, and vice versa. 

 

A final thought:  if an organization hires a person with and OB degree from Harvard over a person with an I/O degree from School X simply because of the Harvard degree, then a) they really need an I/O psychologist and b.)  I would question whether it would be wise to work for an organization that made such silly hiring decisions.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Bren2014