The Wild Card...or is it?

[Fivecoat]

So, the last time I posted here was in December. At that time, I was set on continuing to History/Poli sci programs. However, at the urging of my two research mentors I started looking into Divinity programs. Over time, I came to realize this was an ideal option, suitable to my interests, research, and work.

That said, I am worried about my chances at the institutions I am applying.

My stats:

B.A. in History - University of Oklahoma

Minor - Classics

3.2 GPA - Last sixty hours 3.9

T.A. in Psych

Did independent research in Classics

Founder, President of OU Historical Society

Co-founder and Vice-president of a theatre troupe (raised over a thousand dollars for an AIDs Charity through the production of RENT)

Brother, Alpha Phi Omega Service Fraternity

Representative for the History Department - Advisory Council to the Dean of Arts and Sciences

Academic languages: French

Applying:

Harvard Div, Yale Div, U of C Div, Emory Div, JTS

My letters of rec should be strong, and I am taking the GRE at the end of November. On practice tests my verbal has been above a 700 whereas my quantitative hasn't been great. Also, for what its worth - I'd like to think my transcript is strong. I always took additional hours, and went out of my way to take rigorous, writing/research-intensive courses in History.

Are my choices reasonable? The admission statistics posted online recently seem to vary greatly. Is anyone else in a similar situation?

I appreciate any feedback. Thank you.

[coffeekid]

So, the last time I posted here was in December. At that time, I was set on continuing to History/Poli sci programs. However, at the urging of my two research mentors I started looking into Divinity programs. Over time, I came to realize this was an ideal option, suitable to my interests, research, and work.

That said, I am worried about my chances at the institutions I am applying.

My stats:

B.A. in History - University of Oklahoma

Minor - Classics

3.2 GPA - Last sixty hours 3.9

T.A. in Psych

Did independent research in Classics

Founder, President of OU Historical Society

Co-founder and Vice-president of a theatre troupe (raised over a thousand dollars for an AIDs Charity through the production of RENT)

Brother, Alpha Phi Omega Service Fraternity

Representative for the History Department - Advisory Council to the Dean of Arts and Sciences

Academic languages: French

Applying:

Harvard Div, Yale Div, U of C Div, Emory Div, JTS

My letters of rec should be strong, and I am taking the GRE at the end of November. On practice tests my verbal has been above a 700 whereas my quantitative hasn't been great. Also, for what its worth - I'd like to think my transcript is strong. I always took additional hours, and went out of my way to take rigorous, writing/research-intensive courses in History.

Are my choices reasonable? The admission statistics posted online recently seem to vary greatly. Is anyone else in a similar situation?

I appreciate any feedback. Thank you.

As someone who is currently in a decent divinity school, I would say that you have a good chance at many of those places, especially if you can get a GRE verbal above 700. My experience has been that even elite divinity schools are willing to accept a lot of students, the catch is that the real competition comes with regard to the best scholarships.

Some sad news for you (as it was for me) is that all the small details about your transcript and your extracurriculars will have essentially zero impact on the admissions committees. I was in a similar situation... decent GPA with all sorts of above and beyond info on my transcript.... overloaded semesters, upper level coursework as a freshmen and sophomore, etc. These things can help you, but only if you manage to integrate them eloquently into your SOP. Maybe, for example, emphasize that the reason your GPA wasn't phenomenal was because you always chose to be amitious and go for the harder and more edifying seminars, even if you knew you wouldn't get the A.

Again, your strength in GRE verbal will be a huge asset to you. Places like Chicago and Harvard tend to put a decent emphasis on it considering their huge applicant pool. Also, don't sweat the quantitative... I rocked the math and it had no impact on anything. I have literally heard from three profs on admissions committees in the humanities who have told me that the quantitative is not even considered. So, for you, the GRE is out of 800, not 1600. And try not to botch the AW.

The only additional info I can give is that Chicago told me that they accept over 100 MA students, but only 5 get full tuition offers... the rest get 50%, which still leaves you with $20,000 to cover on your own. I guess i didn't even bother to ask what sort of masters you are applying for. I assume that since you are looking at history/political science that you aren't interested in an M.Div., which is unfortunately where all the best scholarships and stipends are.

Hope this helps!

[Sparky]

Again, your strength in GRE verbal will be a huge asset to you. Places like Chicago and Harvard tend to put a decent emphasis on it considering their huge applicant pool.

Um...that's not what the schools themselves say. Most of them deemphasize the GRE, or don't require it, or just started requiring it a couple of years ago and still don't really consider it.

But coffeekid is right that undergraduate record doesn't mean so much for grad school admission. Mostly it's a matter of, GPA and GRE *qualify* you, then your SOP and letters of recommendation get you in.

You minored in classics; do you have either Latin or Greek? (Or, I suppose, Hebrew?)

And finally: those are all master's-level programs, right? In most fields of religion, it's nearly impossible to get into a top PhD program without at least one master's degree.

[jacib]

Um...that's not what the schools themselves say. Most of them deemphasize the GRE, or don't require it, or just started requiring it a couple of years ago and still don't really consider it.

But coffeekid is right that undergraduate record doesn't mean so much for grad school admission. Mostly it's a matter of, GPA and GRE *qualify* you, then your SOP and letters of recommendation get you in.

You minored in classics; do you have either Latin or Greek? (Or, I suppose, Hebrew?)

And finally: those are all master's-level programs, right? In most fields of religion, it's nearly impossible to get into a top PhD program without at least one master's degree.

Yeah, I was just going to add that the huge difference between applying for MA/MTS/MAR (and sometimes between MA and MTS/MAR), MDiv and PhD--that explains a lot about the variant acceptance rates that the OP talked about. Agreeing with Sparky, conventional wisdom says that low GRE's can keep you out, but high GRE's can't get you in. Sparky might also remember from last year a girl who got a 1600 and initially got just rejection after rejection. I think at the last second she got in somewhere off the waitlist, but it was a close thing. Every school has their own formula and, and though, yes, the verbal is more important than the quantitative, I doubt every school will completely ignore the quantitative GRE. In fact, I remember there's a blog out there called Vita Brevis, and even though he was doing theology he felt that his low quant score was keeping him out. Just something to think about. Actually, come to think of it, even though i don't agree with every piece of advice he gives, it's a good, sober introduction to applying for graduate work in religious studies. Vita Brevis's 8-ish part series on getting into a PhD program (though I still think its useful to read if you're applying for a masters of some kind). It is very Theology/Biblical Studies/Ethics focused, and if you do something else, the rules are a little different (in general, a little more forgiving because they're a little less competative--for non-Judeo-Christian based things, they're actually pretty different I can tell you). Your GPA is a little low, but not so low as to make you uncompetative (I had a 3.25 so I'm not judging here), but you should be aware that that is a relatively weak part of your application. For me, my low GPA really made me work extra-hard on the GRE, but obviously I have no idea if that made a difference.

Edited October 23, 2010 by jacib

[coffeekid]

Um...that's not what the schools themselves say. Most of them deemphasize the GRE, or don't require it, or just started requiring it a couple of years ago and still don't really consider it.

But coffeekid is right that undergraduate record doesn't mean so much for grad school admission. Mostly it's a matter of, GPA and GRE *qualify* you, then your SOP and letters of recommendation get you in.

You minored in classics; do you have either Latin or Greek? (Or, I suppose, Hebrew?)

And finally: those are all master's-level programs, right? In most fields of religion, it's nearly impossible to get into a top PhD program without at least one master's degree.

You're right, the schools themselves do not explicitly say this. The reason I mentioned this is because I received a personal email from the admissions office at Chicago that said otherwise. The woman said that the GRE held weight when it came to their top scholarships, which I can only infer means that it also plays a role in general admission. I didn't apply to Harvard, but I heard a similar account from a friend who was admitted and visited.

But your right, some places (like vanderbilt) don't even require the GRE. My advice might be to play to your advantages if you have them. SOME places will emphasize the GRE, SOME places won't.

[jacib]

You're right, the schools themselves do not explicitly say this. The reason I mentioned this is because I received a personal email from the admissions office at Chicago that said otherwise. The woman said that the GRE held weight when it came to their top scholarships, which I can only infer means that it also plays a role in general admission.

As a note on this, I think GRE scores in general are very important for competitive scholarships across disciplines, because its one clear way the department can justify the money to the university. I hadn't heard of it in religion programs at private universities before, but I'm not surprised because it is very common in sociology departments at state schools.

[Fivecoat]

By way of clarification:

Thank you everyone for your comments and your time.

As a classics minor I did not study Latin, Greek, or Hebrew. In fact, I have a great desire to study them.

I will be applying to M.Div programs at all of the listed institutions, though at Emory I think I will also apply for the MTS, and at JTS I will apply for the MA in History.

Not that I think the MTS isn't challenging, or appropriately measured, but I believe the M.Div offers a more extensive theological education. I am not just interested in studying early Judeo-Christian history or scripture - I am also interested in the role these things have in a practical setting. And - there is a personal component of belief to this.

That said, I suppose I should also mention that I specialized in East Asian History. By minoring in Classics, I took a comparative approach and in the process became deeply invested in the study of Western History - something I had not anticipated.

Thank you again.

[Sparky]

Duke (Div) has a fairly good reputation for funding their MDiv students; you might want to check them out. A good chunk of the PhD students at my previous (MA historical theology) school were from Duke MDiv or MTS, and they all had a very solid (and intimidating! at least to me) historical grounding.

The other posters are right that GRE scores are often used to allocate university-wide fellowships; this doesn't tend to carry over into admissions, which are usually done on a departmental level.

And on a non-admissions related note, I encourage you to start working with a tutor in one of those languages, or at least to take a grad-level intro class this summer! It's always good to get as much language work out of the way as soon as possible, so during school semesters you can concentrate on the fun things.

[Nytusse]

Yes, your GPA is a bit low, but I knew students at HDS who had similar grades, and even not-so-great GREs.

I don't see any reason why you can't get accepted to one of the programs on your list, provided you can write a strong SOP.

I would give some thought to the type of doctoral program you would eventually like to apply to, however (if you are planning on this). Coming from an MTS, I feel there was some skepticism toward me from History departments, and I can only imagine that this would be worse with a straight divinity degree. If you feel that this would be a terminal degree, or that you would likely stay in religion departments, then the MDiv will work very well. From my own experience, I have noticed that professors outside of religion have often assumed I am a minister of some kind, so you have to consider this "marketing" aspect even more seriously with an MDiv.

[11Q13]

As a current Harvard Divinity student I have to say, Harvard doesn't give a damn about your GRE as far as I can tell. I mean, I really bombed it, yet here I am. I know Chicago has a bit of an unwritten minimum however.

[Dillskyplayer]

As a current Harvard Divinity student I have to say, Harvard doesn't give a damn about your GRE as far as I can tell. I mean, I really bombed it, yet here I am. I know Chicago has a bit of an unwritten minimum however.

As an MDIV? No one will really care about your GRE. On the other hand, it might be some sort of salvific figure for you if you have absolutely no service activities, extracurriculars, or anything to make you -pop- and stick out as a distinctive candidate.

My advice? I've done an MA and MTH so far -- I've met a lot of M.Divs in my day. Have a strong personal statement/intellectual autobiography, ace the essay (if you've got one) that you have to respond to (you'd be astounded at how many M.Divs CANNOT write to save their lives!!!!!), have a good writing sample, and a strong CV or resume. Your recommendations? Should be good -- but they're pretty arbitrary. I mean, who in the world is going to give you a BAD one? =] And oh, unless you're recommendations are from someone that is well known in the field you're interested in concentrating upon -- I wouldn't get too excited about nitty gritty networking.

"Oh, so-and-so did an M.Div at HDS in the 70s?" It's unlikely that anyone will remember them.

Just saying!

Goodluck!