low GRE decent GPA

[pinot noir]

Hi my fellow literaris,

This is my first post. I am a journalism/poli sci major applying to grad school for English. I want to write and my ambitions would suggest that I should apply for an M.F.A. However, I found the English program at UC Davis that combines a degree in English with an emphasis in creative writing. All the other schools I am applying to are for an M.F.A (UC Irvine, UC Riverside).

My dilemma is that UC Davis, my school of choice because of the combined emphasis on literature and writing, is the only one that requires the GRE. M.F.A.'s do not require the GRE. I recently took the GRE and my scores are so low that I am embarrassed to post them here. I feel my writing samples/statement of purpose/personal history are very strong (in fact some of my professors are urging me to apply to Iowa Writer's Workshop). I want to stay in California and I want to study literature as I continue my writing craft.

My question is does anyone know what the cut-off line is for GRE scores? Should I worry that the committee with overlook my application because of them? My grades are decent (cumulative 3.68).

I am in a bundle of nerves over this.

Thanks for your input.

Edited October 24, 2010 by ifwriterscouldtalk

[Alette]

Hi my fellow literaris,

This is my first post. I am a journalism/poli sci major applying to grad school for English.

I'm not applying to an MFA nor have solid ideas about what it takes to get into a program, but I wanted to note two things. First, your GPA is OK, but for English (at least the PhD) it's a little low. Or by low, I mean it's not that high - as in, not nearly at the top of the applicant pile. (Yes, I know. That's where we're at.)

More importantly, you say you were a journalism/poli sci major. Or rather, you are. Are you still in college? Have you taken any creative writing classes? Or any related literature classes? If you're lacking there, and lacking a solid manuscript that has been given the stamp of approval from the head CW professor in your genre, then I'd be concerned. I would also hesitate to jump into applications for a program lasting 5-7 years if you don't have significant experience in that field. In any case, you've got to bring twice as much to the table as an English major to prove that you have the knowledge, experience, and developed sense of the field necessary to pursue graduate study. Good luck.

Edited for clarification!

Edited October 25, 2010 by Alette

[pinot noir]

Ok, to clear up the confusion, I am still in college, I have taken many creative writing courses/workshops and attended a few writing conferences. I was accepted to Berkeley (with full scholarship) once upon a time and declined. I know all this doesn't matter. I know my GPA isn't the best and I wouldn't be applying to an English program if it weren't for the emphasis in creative writing. In other words, given the choice I would be applying to only M.F.A. programs had I not found UC Davis' program. I love literature, but I am too fascinated with the art of storytelling to pursue it solely. Part of the reason the MA is attractive is because I would like to teach at the community college level once I graduate. So basically I am throwing myself into a field that may not be my strongest. Hence, the needed advice.

Anyhow, thanks for the input/advice. I will be sure to consider if this is the field for me.

I am applying to a few MFA programs and just one MA program in English. I am finishing up my undergrad in print journalism and have been working on other writing projects on the side.

P.S. do advanced nonfiction writing classes count as creative writing courses? from what I hear we are in an era of nonfiction as opposed to fiction/short story.

[Alette]

Anyhow, thanks for the input/advice. I will be sure to consider if this is the field for me.

I'd scoot over to The Chronicle of Higher Education for a reality check. It's next to impossible even to secure community college jobs. And you would need an MA, not an MFA, to accomplish that goal. I'd also jump over to the section of this board dedicated to current grads; please note the amount of posters who struggle with depression, anxiety, and general malaise (and all of these people are in fields they love). Graduate school is not like undergrad. Maybe that's something one can only fully understand until one gets there (was for me), but it's something to think about when you consider if this is the field for you. There's just something that makes me recoil at that phrase - this isn't trying on a great coat to see if it's for you: it's a relinquishment of your entire mental and emotional state, to be melodramatic but truthful. (I don't mean to sound snippy or anything; it's just the reality of the situation.)

As far as nonfiction writing classes go, your school's coursebook should answer that question.

Inafuturelife: great minds

[pinot noir]

I'd scoot over to The Chronicle of Higher Education for a reality check. It's next to impossible even to secure community college jobs. And you would need an MA, not an MFA, to accomplish that goal. I'd also jump over to the section of this board dedicated to current grads; please note the amount of posters who struggle with depression, anxiety, and general malaise (and all of these people are in fields they love). Graduate school is not like undergrad. Maybe that's something one can only fully understand until one gets there (was for me), but it's something to think about when you consider if this is the field for you. There's just something that makes me recoil at that phrase - this isn't trying on a great coat to see if it's for you: it's a relinquishment of your entire mental and emotional state, to be melodramatic but truthful. (I don't mean to sound snippy or anything; it's just the reality of the situation.)

As far as nonfiction writing classes go, your school's coursebook should answer that question.

Inafuturelife: great minds

Sounds like an elite class you've joined. Last time I checked there is a lot more to life than "relinquishing your entire mental and emotional state." I watched my dad go back to school at 48, get his Master's in mathematics and now he is tenured at one of the best community colleges and state universities. I understand that there is a lot of hard work involved and if I wasn't up for the challenge I wouldn't be putting time and effort into it. I do however think (and judging from some of the posts may be correct) that some people are just too invested and end up worrying and stressing over a process that is supposed to be enriching. I think the experience is what you make it and the ones who are depressed in their jobs are maybe too invested in "The Chronicle of Higher Education." I've had enough hardships in my life to know that I can make it through this one.

P.S. Thanks for the reality check!

[lifealive]

I'd scoot over to The Chronicle of Higher Education for a reality check. It's next to impossible even to secure community college jobs. And you would need an MA, not an MFA, to accomplish that goal. I'd also jump over to the section of this board dedicated to current grads; please note the amount of posters who struggle with depression, anxiety, and general malaise (and all of these people are in fields they love). Graduate school is not like undergrad. Maybe that's something one can only fully understand until one gets there (was for me), but it's something to think about when you consider if this is the field for you. There's just something that makes me recoil at that phrase - this isn't trying on a great coat to see if it's for you: it's a relinquishment of your entire mental and emotional state, to be melodramatic but truthful. (I don't mean to sound snippy or anything; it's just the reality of the situation.)

As far as nonfiction writing classes go, your school's coursebook should answer that question.

Inafuturelife: great minds

A few misconceptions here. I'd like to clear them up.

First of all, many MFA graduates DO secure community college positions, just as many PhDs secure community college jobs (and the MFA is a terminal degree--technically more similar to a PhD than an MA). What's necessary for such a career is a strong interest and experience in community college teaching (adjunct experience, experience with remedial English courses, etc.). And persistence. And a will to relocate.

Second, I don't think any of us is in a position to make predictions about how a person will fare mentally or emotionally when he or she is deciding to apply to grad school. And so what if someone gets to grad school and then decides it isn't for him? So he withdraws. It's not the end of the world. For some people, graduate school IS like trying on a coat and then taking it off, and that's not necessarily a terrible thing. It's not the Marines. We all know people along the way who decided it wasn't for them, or got a better job offer, or just couldn't cut it.

OP: I applied to MFA programs once upon a time. What I remember most about my process is that admissions committees stressed the importance of the writing sample, and the writing sample only. Test scores and GPA were important only to the extent that they needed to meet the bare minimum. I'm not quite sure about how much English coursework an applicant needed to have done, but I do recall that there was some kind of minimum (may vary from program to program). You also don't need to have a thesis or manuscript that has the "stamp of approval" of your creative writing director. If you're good, you're good. And if you're not, then what's the worst that happens? You get rejected and wait awhile and apply again.

[lifealive]

i don't think any of us were necessarily trying to judge or make predictions about the OP. but it is better for the OP, i think, to hear some of our concerns about how he/she comes across (at this point in the process) so that they can take appropriate steps to prevent the ad-comms from seeing them in the same way and do all that they can to help strengthen their application.

i know i was naive as hell about the whole process when i first started coming to these forums and applying for an MA, so i'm not judging by any means.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that a person's exploratory posts on a message board are an indicator of how they might come off in an application.

Moreover, the information here is not useful to helping the OP strengthen his or her application. "3.7 is a low GPA for English majors" and "you need the stamp of approval of a creative writing professor" "MFAs can't get community college jobs": none of this is particularly accurate or helpful. And I'm not even going to touch the question of tone.

One thing I do know: the OP would probably best be served by asking these questions of faculty memebers rather than anonymous people on the internet.

[shepardn7]

i guess i can only speak with my own intentions in mind. the original post was fairly unclear about the amount of creative writing the OP has done before...and they cleared that up in subsequent posts. i don't recall anyone making a comment about a creative writing professor needing to approve their writing sample to apply... i simply brought up concerns about the amount of previous coursework in english/CW that the OP may have done (as brilliant as a sample may be, many MFA programs (at least the ones i am familiar with) will still expect some previous academic experience in CW). i do agree that the info about the MA/MFA aspect was wrong as MFA is a terminal degree, but a lot of community colleges (again, speaking from my own experience at one) don't offer a lot of creative writing courses. they want someone who can teach a lot of various comp classes and some gen ed lit courses. i'd venture to say there's not much beyond "intro to creative writing" offered - if that- but i could be wrong, and it just doesn't seem to me that the MFA is the best track to a comm college job. this would depend on what the OP wants to teach, though.

This is late, but I want to clear this up for future searchers: if you plan on getting an MFA and getting an adjunct Comp job at a comm. college as a sort of "backburner" while you publish your creative stuff (because, let's face it, adjuncting at a CC forever is just not the way to live), you should attend an MFA program that will give you a Comp job as your TAship. MFA graduates don't generally teach CrWrit at a CC, they teach Comp, just like all the English MAs (and Ph.Ds); it's not the title of the degree (it doesn't really matter if it's MA or MFA, though you likely need a doctorate for TT CC job) but the teaching experience via graduate program funding. In fact, lots of MFA graduates I know are teaching Comp (not English or CrWrit) at comm. colleges, and they got their jobs because they had a fair amount of Comp teaching experience during their programs. Most MFA programs have their students teach Comp, not CrWrit, because it's what the university needs them to do.

Edited November 30, 2010 by sarandipidy

[tinapickles]

This is late, but I want to clear this up for future searchers: if you plan on getting an MFA and getting an adjunct Comp job at a comm. college as a sort of "backburner" while you publish your creative stuff (because, let's face it, adjuncting at a CC forever is just not the way to live), you should attend an MFA program that will give you a Comp job as your TAship. MFA graduates don't generally teach CrWrit at a CC, they teach Comp, just like all the English MAs (and Ph.Ds); it's not the title of the degree (it doesn't really matter if it's MA or MFA, though you likely need a doctorate for TT CC job) but the teaching experience via graduate program funding. In fact, lots of MFA graduates I know are teaching Comp (not English or CrWrit) at comm. colleges, and they got their jobs because they had a fair amount of Comp teaching experience during their programs. Most MFA programs have their students teach Comp, not CrWrit, because it's what the university needs them to do.

This. As an MFAer I say completely and totally this.

It is not unusual for a person who was NOT an English Major as an undergrad to get an MFA, as an MFA is, largely, more of a workshop model of schooling. This means you spend a significant amount of time writing (and rewriting) and thus honing your craft vs. reading and analyzing books. This is not to say that there isn't a literature component to the degree, but it's usually very cursory (I took a grad total of 4 lit classes over a course of a three year MFA degree).

Sarandipity is 100% correct in saying that if you ultimate goal is to teach, and MFA is not necessarily the best method. The courses you will be offered to TA will be comp classes, not Creative Writing. Positive: you'll get some experience under your belt. She is also correct in saying that most MFAs, at the CC level and otherwise (at least until they establish their credentials as a writer--i.e. publish extensively) teach Comp Courses. I've did this for 3.5 years and it is a touch sould sucking AND does NOT allow you adequate time to work on creative pieces for publication. Teaching comp is, in my experience, an 80 hour a week job between meeting with students, grading papers, etc--and probably 2-3 courses at 2-3 colleges just to make ends meet. You will have, in all likelihood, have an average of 80 students. Which means if the average paper is 5 pages long, means 400 pages of grading NOT including all the homeworks, quizzes, and prewriting exercises you'll need to grade and turn around in a timely manner.

As for CREATIVE non-fiction--emphasis on creative--is vastly different from other non-fiction such as journalism. Creative non-fiction resembles fiction in format and technique; the only difference, really, is that the stories are true vs. made up. A number of programs are making room for non-fiction writers these days--PhD and MFA alike. Think memoir, travel narratives, true crime, etc. Incidentally, sales wise, non-fiction tends to outsell fiction...