Literacy and Grad Students

[rising_star]

Also, let me know when you find an instance of me using textspeak here or anywhere else on this forum. Or any of the other forums I am a part of.

pointed, This was a reference to your comments about textspeak, not your usage of it.

To everyone: Since everyone has had so many productive things to add to this discussion, I think I'll go ahead and throw in my thoughts. I find it extremely aggravating when people specifically elect not to use proper English to the best of their abilities. Almost anyone typing "u" or "ur" can also type "you" or "your". Unless there's a compelling reason for not being able to do so (mind you if the "y" on the keyboard was broken I'd understand), then why not follow the general protocol here of spelling out your words? No, there isn't a rule saying that you have too but it is polite. I don't understand why being courteous is so difficult and has led to like 90 posts about why people should be allowed to use textspeak. No one is stopping you from using it. People are expressing how it makes them feel about what you say and they have a right to hold those opinions (even as others use analogies that are not actually analogous to disparage and denigrate their position) just as you have the right to use textspeak since that doesn't violate any forum rules.

So the issue here isn't CAN you do something, it's SHOULD you do it. If you were communicating with fellow graduate students in an email, would you use textspeak? With professors? With graduate students you want to collaborate with at other schools? This forum includes your fellow graduate students, who are also your future colleagues. If you wouldn't send them an email or private message full of textspeak, why post for everyone to see using it? As the political science thread has made abundantly clear, there are professors reading and posting on this forum (again, we have no rule against this). So how would you feel about your future advisor seeing you communicate so poorly with others through textspeak and then attacking others for not liking that you chose to use textspeak?

Personally, even when I call, email, or text message my advisor, I refrain from using textspeak or whatever you want to call it. A grandma using it in an Alltell commercial does not make it appropriate. Someone used a bad analog with a famous professor who wears shorts to conferences. Once you're famous/tenured/secure in your career, you can do whatever you want. But in graduate school? Ha! You are still trying to impress people, make connections, and prove yourself to those already in the field. They can wear shorts to present at a conference but you shouldn't. Why? Because that could be the one thing people remember about you when they're viewing your job application..."So and so? Didn't that kid give a paper in torn up jeans? Can't dress for a conference so why waste money bringing him to campus?" Do you want that to be you?

The bottom line, to me, is that when you use textspeak, you are showing that 1) you do not respect the other users of this forum who have repeatedly shown their preference for proper English and 2) that you probably fail to consider that anything you post here is for public consumption and that your future colleagues base their opinions on what they know.

[pointedears]

pointed, This was a reference to your comments about textspeak, not your usage of it.

Umm..ok!

[pointedears]

But in graduate school? Ha! You are still trying to impress people, make connections, and prove yourself to those already in the field. They can wear shorts to present at a conference but you shouldn't. Why? Because that could be the one thing people remember about you when they're viewing your job application..."So and so? Didn't that kid give a paper in torn up jeans? Can't dress for a conference so why waste money bringing him to campus?" Do you want that to be you?

Exactly my point. If this argument is based on nothing except impressing people, say that outright. Don't imply that people on the other side are illiterate. But then, I don't come from a field where impressing people with anything except your work does any good, so this is difficult for me to understand. A job applicant in my field will not be turned down regardless of how torn his jeans are. As long as his smell is not making me throw up(which is basic courtesy, not professional courtesy), he has the job(if his work is any good).

[snagsby52]

To sashababie:

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. What I meant by the comment was not a reference to private messages from or to Minnesotan. It was a reference to private messages directed towards myself. One of the members on this forum sent me a rude private message disputing what I had said on this public forum. I find that offensive, and in all the truth the vehemence with which he/she explained their point of view in the private message scared me. It was becoming personal, and this is an issue, not a battle of personalities. On the internet, I would rather keep anger in the public rather than the private space. I think that is a perfectly valid point of view. If other people want to have angry private message wars, then fine, but I don't want to.

[historygirl]

No one said the person using textspeak is illiterate. What was said is that is gives a bad impression and gives the reader pause about the abilities of the person using textspeak. Fair or unfair, I don't know any of you in person, nor do I have your CVs, LORs, or publications in front of me. All I can judge you on is your posts. Given that, if you choose to use less than standard English, you cannot be surprised that judgments are made. I cannot say you are illiterate. What I can say is that I feel textspeak is immature and disrespectful.

Oh, and you clearly didn't understand my comment that you quoted below. Rising_Star did.

[pointedears]

When I am talking to language purists, I comprehend their comments based on the fact that they are purists. If you meant something and wrote something else, well ok.

And umm..actually the topic of the thread says just that. Literacy and Grad students. What else does literacy mean here?

[historygirl]

I said precisely what I meant. Others understood it. I managed standard English, too. I think you are looking for a fight, and I think you're interpreting comments based upon that. As far as the title of the thread, I believe Minnesotan was referring to literacy as in "communicating using the written word" and not the ability to read and write.

[pointedears]

People who are homosexual face a lot of flak from the society.

Yeah.Oh, only I meant people who support gay rights there! Not looking for a fight here, honestly. But how can 'people who use chatspeak' mean 'people who don't mind the usage of chatspeak'?

I thought literacy meant just that. But I am an ESL so probably I misunderstood all of it. That, or what we're seeing here is backpedaling.

[luvalicious]

Obviously the thread title, and what at least I am debating/discussing here, don't match. I didn't think it was that big of a deal, but maybe it is, since even though I, and others, have repeatedly said that we don't consider the use of chatspeak to mean that the user is illiterate, that seems to be one of your sticking points of late, pointed ears. So maybe this should be re-titled. Or closed, if people feel that it was started in bad faith.

[rising_star]

Are the person who uses textspeak and one who comments about using textspeak the same? Nothing in historygirl's original comment says that they are. Given how you've railed against illiteracy, I suggest considering clauses when you read and noting that reinforcing an idea does not imply nor does it directly state that you used textspeak at any point. Again, where did historygirl directly accuse you of using textspeak? If that's your only defense, I'm afraid you are not comprehending something...

It seems to me, pointedears, that you have a distinct problem with people judging you based on what you post. That's life. And, btw, I think that you think you can interview in torn jeans and get a job but, have you actually tried it? Have you talked to anyone that's tried it? Do you know of specific, recent examples?

As for literacy, I think an important part of literacy is being able to adequately communicate your ideas with others. I realize this isn't included in most dictionary definitions (cf. Compact Oxford English Dictionary: "the ability to read and write") but I think most people would agree that having the ability to do something is great but if you cannot do so in a meaningful way, having the ability may be insufficient. As graduate students, being able to read, think, and then write about our ideas are the most important things that we can do. A successful career depends on being able to do these things in ways that render your thoughts and ideas comprehensible to others. If no one can understand what you wrote, it will not get published and will consequently have little impact on the field. An illiterate graduate student (literacy as I've specified it) will likely go nowhere quickly. If you cannot communicate with others successfully, your graduate career may be painfully short, which is one of the things Minnesotan pointed out pages ago. The point about textspeak that has been made by Minnesotan, historygirl, and others is that using textspeak affects your ability to communicate successfully with others.

[historygirl]

People who are homosexual face a lot of flak from the society.

Yeah.Oh, only I meant people who support gay rights there! Not looking for a fight here, honestly. But how can 'people who use chatspeak' mean 'people who don't mind the usage of chatspeak'?

I thought literacy meant just that. But I am an ESL so probably I misunderstood all of it. That, or what we're seeing here is backpedaling.

Your example makes no sense whatsoever. However, I'll try to address what I think you're trying to say (although rising_star did an excellent job). One group can be larger than the other - as in "a man is a person, but a person isn't necessarily a man." Or, to cleave more closely to your comment, I can defend the purchase of, say, a Honda without actually owning one myself. I'll give you a bit of a pass because you've stated you're ESL, but you should really be sure you have the meaning of a person's statement correct before you rail at that person for a few posts (or minutes, in real life). If you do something like this in a seminar, you will look like an idiot. I'm certain you do not want people to have that impression of you, so take my advice if you so choose.

[engguy]

It's fascinating to me that this question has consumed a number of folks for the entire weekend. Just goes to show how incredibly important language actually is to all of us. I'm ambivalent about this, as I feel that the language is constantly evolving and it would be as foolhardy to try to stop it as it would be to redirect a river or reverse a glacial melt. Is texting a future direction the language is going, or just a tributary with a certain utility, bound to dry up in the long run? I have to admit that as someone who teaches comp, it really rubs me the wrong way when students send me "textspeak" e-mails. It seems to me partially an ethical question -- how important is "proper" English to you? Which leads to, as rising-star points out, questions of literacy and the importance of articulation in being understood. That, vs. just having something to say and wanting to spew it out there without worrying about how it sounds -- being natural and spontaneous.

Therefore we arrive at the issue not of language, but languages -- and language is a sort of social contract that we enter into, for better or worse. If you are texting with your friends, for example, implicit in that is that you've agreed it's an OK way or preferred way of talking. When students try to text me, I very quickly have to define the terms of our social contract. The problem here is that the folks on the forum are not all your friends and no agreement has been made... Though it seems clear the majority prefer standard English.

[pointedears]

It seems to me, pointedears, that you have a distinct problem with people judging you based on what you post. That's life. And, btw, I think that you think you can interview in torn jeans and get a job but, have you actually tried it? Have you talked to anyone that's tried it? Do you know of specific, recent examples?

I have. I know you are not going to believe this, but talk to a few other people from my stream before you dismiss it. Or if you can lay your hands on an SOP from a grad applicant from my field, you'll know what I mean. People in the design field are generally not concerned about how many tattoos you have on your face before they give you a job. And if past client experiences are anything to go by, they generally think a tattoo or torn jeans on a designer shoots up their cool quotient by ten points(which is bullshit ofcourse).

The point about textspeak that has been made by Minnesotan, historygirl, and others is that using textspeak affects your ability to communicate successfully with others.

Which is exactly what I said some 2-3 posts back. I am not debating that at all.

Also, I am not sure what you guys are getting at here. Let's go over this again. Historygirl made a statement about a certain group of people. Next sentence, she says I reinforce the idea. How are the two sentences related at all unless she didn't mean that I belong to that group of people!

Talking about judgments, I understand what you mean. I have made a few of mine myself. First, none of you know nothing about my field and yet people have talked about seminars, jobs, me dropping out etc.(my field is right there if anyone wants to go over it). This is an irrelevant point but guess what? If my thesis project is in textspeak written upside down, my professors won't give a rat's ass about it. Infact I am 80% sure my final thesis project will not have any words at all(no written communication at all). Not saying this has got anything to do with the argument here, but hey before you get all concerned about me, atleast check the facts. Or if you don't know anything about a subject, keep your suggestions to yourself. Trust me when I say that you wouldn't even have heard of the names of the top 5 places to do an MFA in my field.

Second, I am amused at how you guys have ganged up against me. Can you really say you're attacking textspeak and not me? I mean, I can always dig up a few quotes but you know what you've been saying.

Finally, I am leaving to visit two of my universities tomorrow. I can certainly carry on the debate from there but choose not to do so. Obviously both the sides have said what they've wanted to and someone has to put an end to this. Plus I want to start fresh when I come back from the visit and want to leave this forum with good memories and I can only see this thread going downhill. Again, I did not mean to insult or belittle anyone. I apologize if I did that unknowingly.

Bottomline - My only point? What you do outside of academia should be no indication of how good you are professionally. (stating this because I think it got lost somewhere along the way)

I wish you all the best. Specially the ones in the hugely overpopulated Humanities field. I can't even begin to understand how much harder this whole application process must be for you.(I don't mean to sound sarcastic)

[historygirl]

FWIW, a couple MFA professors have discussed the fact that often people in the field go overboard with the relaxed atmosphere, costing them in reputation and interviews. You need to be careful even in a fine arts field.

But since you've determined that we're all against you, never mind.

[luvalicious]

Talking about judgments, I understand what you mean. I have made a few of mine myself. First, none of you know nothing about my field and yet people have talked about seminars, jobs, me dropping out etc.(my field is right there if anyone wants to go over it). This is an irrelevant point but guess what? If my thesis project is in textspeak written upside down, my professors won't give a rat's ass about it. Infact I am 80% sure my final thesis project will not have any words at all(no written communication at all). Not saying this has got anything to do with the argument here, but hey before you get all concerned about me, atleast check the facts. Or if you don't know anything about a subject, keep your suggestions to yourself. Trust me when I say that you wouldn't even have heard of the names of the top 5 places to do an MFA in my field.

You shouldn't assume that just because I didn't explicitly name the colleagues I asked, that they were solely in my field or that I, or anyone else know anything of yours. I try very hard not to make blanket statements without getting a wide-range of response, but it just so happened that they all agreed with me. (Again, maybe it's just the people I know.) One of them has piercings and tattoos that she covers up for work, even though she works in a rather relaxed environment, because she was taught and continues to believe that her professionalism and skill would get her the jobs, not her "cool quotient." And she's not some low-level intern or anything like that, but her experience has taught her that until she reaches hot-sh*t status, landing jobs means keeping it clean until the client gives you the cue -- just like in any other field, I think. I'm not debating that such a thing exists, but from my experience and from what I've been told,it's hardly uniform.

And as much as I agree that what one does outside of academia should not be seen as the most accurate reflection of what you do within it, the fact is that it does... and some people would consider a forum for grad students to be part of academia. And even if it's not part of academia, I don't switch my distaste for chatspeak off in any venue other than, as I said, actually chatting or texting, and just as you should feel free to use it, I feel free to not take it seriously.

I do hope that you won't take your toys and go home, because I think it's a relevant issue and I hate to see only one side so... overly-represented. I hope you don't think I was attacking you, because I truly wasn't trying to, but I tend to feel that on any issue one feels strongly about, defensiveness abounds as a result of having your beliefs questioned... and that can extend to both sides of the debate.

Best of luck with your visits.

[pointedears]

You shouldn't assume that just because I didn't explicitly name the colleagues I asked, that they were solely in my field or that I, or anyone else know anything of yours.

My statement wasn't directed at you at all. I know you've never made any such assumptions.

[Minnesotan]

To sashababie:

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. What I meant by the comment was not a reference to private messages from or to Minnesotan. It was a reference to private messages directed towards myself. One of the members on this forum sent me a rude private message disputing what I had said on this public forum. I find that offensive, and in all the truth the vehemence with which he/she explained their point of view in the private message scared me. It was becoming personal, and this is an issue, not a battle of personalities. On the internet, I would rather keep anger in the public rather than the private space. I think that is a perfectly valid point of view. If other people want to have angry private message wars, then fine, but I don't want to.

Okay. I realize that I started this thread, but I am also quite willing to lock it if abusive or threatening behavior is the result of its continued existence.

As a reminder to all: people posting abusive messages, in public or private, on this website will lose their posting privileges. Threatening comments will be referred to the proper authorities.

snagsby52: if the person messaging you persists, please let any of the moderators know. We will deal with the situation.

[snagsby52]

Okay. I realize that I started this thread, but I am also quite willing to lock it if abusive or threatening behavior is the result of its continued existence.

As a reminder to all: people posting abusive messages, in public or private, on this website will lose their posting privileges. Threatening comments will be referred to the proper authorities.

snagsby52: if the person messaging you persists, please let any of the moderators know. We will deal with the situation.

Nothing that was said was that bad. If they had said it to me on the public forum, it would not have bothered me so much. I just didn't understand why I was receiving private messages outside the public forum about the same thing--explaining their point of view, and attacking my emotional response and my logic skills. They are blocked from writing to me. I perhaps overreacted and got freaked out, because I just didn't want to have a private argument with someone who I knew had already been discussing the issue for six pages. I got on thegradcafe to discuss my grad school situation, and I commented on the whole textspeak conversation because I wanted to make a point about the cultural effects of using textspeak. I am sure everyone of us--no matter where we got in or didn't get in--is really stressed right now. It is natural that people would want to make themselves feel that they were right about things, but enough is enough.

[Minnesotan]

Nothing that was said was that bad. If they had said it to me on the public forum, it would not have bothered me so much. I just didn't understand why I was receiving private messages outside the public forum about the same thing--explaining their point of view, and attacking my emotional response and my logic skills. They are blocked from writing to me. I perhaps overreacted and got freaked out, because I just didn't want to have a private argument with someone who I knew had already been discussing the issue for six pages. I got on thegradcafe to discuss my grad school situation, and I commented on the whole textspeak conversation because I wanted to make a point about the cultural effects of using textspeak. I am sure everyone of us--no matter where we got in or didn't get in--is really stressed right now. It is natural that people would want to make themselves feel that they were right about things, but enough is enough.

I'm glad the situation did not go too far in a bad direction. Let us consider my comments as a general reminder of forum policies, then, and let it stand at that.

Please carry on with the debate.

[bioangele]

I have been skimming this forum for a few months now and remained content to stay in the shadows...until now! I had to register JUST so that I could tell Minnesotan that he makes me LITERALLY laugh out loud. This thread has kept me entertained longer than any other grad school forum content. In fact, the Orlando Bloom Fan Club comment was SO hilarious that I had to read it aloud to a coworker.

Keep up the good work, Minnesotan - if you ever come out with a DVD or YouTube video ala "Raw," let me know! In the meantime, I'll content myself to your gradcafe posts.

[Minnesotan]

I'm here all night.

Remember to tip your waitress.