Another law school applicant bites the dust...

[Jim Hoyl]

Hi all,

I am a current Political Science major at a top 20 USNWR institution with a 3.95 cumulative GPA and a 4.0 degree GPA who has applied for and been accepted to a number of law schools for the 2011 admissions cycle. Long story short, the more I've researched about the prospect of taking on 150K of law school debt and competing tooth and nail for biglaw jobs which require upwards of 80 hours/week, the more I've become turned off by the law school route and enticed by the PhD route. I realize that having geared the majority of my UG career towards law school admissions, I will have to start slow and work my way back towards compiling a good PhD application. At this point, I'm afraid that I don't have that much to offer PhD adcomms in terms of "softs." What I do have is a pretty good honors thesis which I wrote last year, a few part time jobs/internships, a couple of paper presentations, and a relatively interesting personal background.

As I've begun to research the PhD admissions process within the past 2 days, I've come across a couple of specific questions which I would appreciate further input on (please feel free to pick and choose whichever question you feel like answering):

1) How would you compare the GRE to the LSAT in terms of difficulty and weight in admissions?

2) What advantage, if any, would doing a Masters prior to a PhD offer?

3) Is there a specific site where I can find admission statistics for top 10 PhD Political Science PhD programs?

4) How common is it for PhD students to transfer?

5) How large of a role does the prestige of your PhD program play in your future career prospects?

Edited December 23, 2010 by Jim Hoyl

[JudPolitics]

On 12/23/2010 at 2:34 AM, Jim Hoyl said:

Hi all,

 

I am a current Political Science major at a top 20 USNWR institution with a 3.95 cumulative GPA and a 4.0 degree GPA who has applied for and been accepted to a number of law schools for the 2011 admissions cycle. Long story short, the more I've researched about the prospect of taking on 150K of law school debt and competing tooth and nail for biglaw jobs which require upwards of 80 hours/week, the more I've become turned off by the law school route and enticed by the PhD route. I realize that having geared the majority of my UG career towards law school admissions, I will have to start slow and work my way back towards compiling a good PhD application. At this point, I'm afraid that I don't have that much to offer PhD adcomms in terms of "softs." What I do have is a pretty good honors thesis which I wrote last year, a few part time jobs/internships, a couple of paper presentations, and a relatively interesting personal background.

 

As I've begun to research the PhD admissions process within the past 2 days, I've come across a couple of specific questions which I would appreciate further input on (please feel free to pick and choose whichever question you feel like answering):

 

1) How would you compare the GRE to the LSAT in terms of difficulty and weight in admissions?

2) What advantage, if any, would doing a Masters prior to a PhD offer?

3) Is there a specific site where I can find admission statistics for top 10 PhD Political Science PhD programs?

4) How common is it for PhD students to transfer?

5) How large of a role does the prestige of your PhD program play in your future career prospects?

I'm a Top 5 law school graduate who is now seeking PoliSci PhD admission. Thoughts:

1) Apples and oranges. The LSAT requires no substantive knowledge; the GRE does. They're both time-sensitive. The LSAT is much more of the law school admissions decision than the GRE is, but both tests serve a gatekeeping function at some of the toughest schools.

2) Unqualified to comment

3) This site is as good as it gets. The "N" for PhD programs is much, much smaller than law schools, so it's much harder to see aggregated data; further, it's much more about fit than numbers. The same basic principles apply: at top PoliSci programs, do "well" on the GRE (shoot for 700+ on both V/Q; higher is better), have a great GPA, and draft a polished SoP that connects you to the faculty at the school to which you're applying. Then hope.

4) Unqualified to comment

5) Depends on what you want to do. School prestige carries furthest outside of academia ("worst," least selective program at Harvard will likely be more impressive to "industry" folks than a degree from the most selective program in a particular subfield if that's a lesser known school (e.g. Washington University in St. Louis); program prestige carries furthest in it. There are not enough academic jobs for all the newly-minted PhDs so job prospects are, like post-law school, tough. The difference: there's more than enough jobs for lawyers, there aren't enough tenured professorships to go around. YMMV.

I loved law school and didn't hate my four years of biglaw as much as I thought. But the debt is constricting and if you don't think you want to be a lawyer, law school is probably not right for you. That said, if you don't want to become a TT academic and aren't willing to put the time and effort in to do so, a PhD might not be right, either. Best of luck.

[Jim Hoyl]

Thanks for the response, very much appreciated.

One thing though, I was under the impression that there are actually more lawyers than there are jobs for lawyers, especially in this current economy. Barring a strong comeback within the next 4-5 years, I've been told that it is likely to remain that way. Any thoughts on this?

Also, for any of you out there, how is placement after graduating from a PhD program usually determined? Is it primarily based on grades, research, recommendations, prestige of your institution, etc.?

[JudPolitics]

Thanks for the response, very much appreciated.

One thing though, I was under the impression that there are actually more lawyers than there are jobs for lawyers, especially in this current economy. Barring a strong comeback within the next 4-5 years, I've been told that it is likely to remain that way. Any thoughts on this?

Also, for any of you out there, how is placement after graduating from a PhD program usually determined? Is it primarily based on grades, research, recommendations, prestige of your institution, etc.?

Let me clarify: there are plenty of legal jobs, few biglaw jobs. This is problematic if you are dependent on a $160k starting salary to repay loans. But because there are innumerable legal problems and high barrier to entry to practice (law school + bar exam), there's work to go around.

To get a tenure track job it is an opaque blend of research, connections, fit, and timing. I'm still new to this myself, so I'm sorry I can't provide more guidance on this front.

[Jim Hoyl]

Let me clarify: there are plenty of legal jobs, few biglaw jobs. This is problematic if you are dependent on a $160k starting salary to repay loans. But because there are innumerable legal problems and high barrier to entry to practice (law school + bar exam), there's work to go around.

To get a tenure track job it is an opaque blend of research, connections, fit, and timing. I'm still new to this myself, so I'm sorry I can't provide more guidance on this front.

Again, your insight is very much appreciated. I personally have no problem starting in a mid-sized firm/public sector/etc. and taking the extra years to pay back my loans. It's just that from talking to people on top-law-schools.com and so forth, it seems like even these 'secondary' jobs are getting taken up right now by more experienced law school grads. All I hear from current law school students is complete doom and gloom and how going to law school is the worst decision you could possibly make right now. Eventually, when you've heard enough nightmare stories, that stuff gets to you.

Anyways, I would still love to hear from anyone out there who can give me further input on my earlier 'PhD placement' question.

[flyers29]

Hi all,

I am a current Political Science major at a top 20 USNWR institution with a 3.95 cumulative GPA and a 4.0 degree GPA who has applied for and been accepted to a number of law schools for the 2011 admissions cycle. Long story short, the more I've researched about the prospect of taking on 150K of law school debt and competing tooth and nail for biglaw jobs which require upwards of 80 hours/week, the more I've become turned off by the law school route and enticed by the PhD route. I realize that having geared the majority of my UG career towards law school admissions, I will have to start slow and work my way back towards compiling a good PhD application. At this point, I'm afraid that I don't have that much to offer PhD adcomms in terms of "softs." What I do have is a pretty good honors thesis which I wrote last year, a few part time jobs/internships, a couple of paper presentations, and a relatively interesting personal background.

As I've begun to research the PhD admissions process within the past 2 days, I've come across a couple of specific questions which I would appreciate further input on (please feel free to pick and choose whichever question you feel like answering):

1) How would you compare the GRE to the LSAT in terms of difficulty and weight in admissions?

2) What advantage, if any, would doing a Masters prior to a PhD offer?

3) Is there a specific site where I can find admission statistics for top 10 PhD Political Science PhD programs?

4) How common is it for PhD students to transfer?

5) How large of a role does the prestige of your PhD program play in your future career prospects?

I'll answer 2 not answered prior:

2) Doing a Master's program first gives you an insight into what the field is like at the graduate level. I would still say there are some things that you don't experience as a master's-level student, but it's not a bad idea to go this route first. One drawback is that you might have to spend another 3 semesters doing coursework if you do a master's and PhD separately as most programs will only let you transfer a certain amount of hours of credit.

4) Not sure what you mean exactly. If you started at a program (without a master's degree already) and didn't like it, you could just complete the requirements for the master's and apply elsewhere (at which point the first answer would apply to you). If you complete your coursework, do your comps, and are working on your dissertation, however, you can't just transfer elsewhere. I know some people here have had problems with their department and chose to go elsewhere, but they pretty much had to start from the beginning again.

[Jim Hoyl]

I'll answer 2 not answered prior:

2) Doing a Master's program first gives you an insight into what the field is like at the graduate level. I would still say there are some things that you don't experience as a master's-level student, but it's not a bad idea to go this route first. One drawback is that you might have to spend another 3 semesters doing coursework if you do a master's and PhD separately as most programs will only let you transfer a certain amount of hours of credit.

4) Not sure what you mean exactly. If you started at a program (without a master's degree already) and didn't like it, you could just complete the requirements for the master's and apply elsewhere (at which point the first answer would apply to you). If you complete your coursework, do your comps, and are working on your dissertation, however, you can't just transfer elsewhere. I know some people here have had problems with their department and chose to go elsewhere, but they pretty much had to start from the beginning again.

Thank you for your response. You've pretty much answered what I was going for in #4.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Jim Hoyl

[adaptations]

1) How would you compare the GRE to the LSAT in terms of difficulty and weight in admissions?

2) What advantage, if any, would doing a Masters prior to a PhD offer?

3) Is there a specific site where I can find admission statistics for top 10 PhD Political Science PhD programs?

4) How common is it for PhD students to transfer?

5) How large of a role does the prestige of your PhD program play in your future career prospects?

[GopherGrad]

I can say that there is even less opportunity for solid jobs in academia coming out of a PhD program than there are in the legal community (even with the downturn).

What other job types are available to a Ph.D. in polisci?

Edit:

You also need to consider that few law schools offer any funding to students whatsoever, so the overall financial exposure of attending law school might be riskier. Working as a barista with a Ph.D. might be humiliating, but it ain't like working as a barista with a J.D. and 120K in debt to service.

Edited December 27, 2010 by GopherGrad

[Jim Hoyl]

1. The GRE is important, but not near as important as the LSAT is for Law school. Difficulty is relative to the test taker.

2. Having earned a master's degree first, I can attest that it gave me a better sense of what I wanted to study and what a PhD program would be like. This was particularly true, since my MA program was structured such that most of my courses were small seminars with PhD students. It also helped me overcome coming from a mid-tier undergraduate institution. If you KNOW for sure you want to do a PhD, I would go straight to it and skip the MA.

3. No. Some schools provide this info. Duke for example has a lot, although it is somewhat hard to find on the website.

4. Not very common from what I hear. Transfers must be well justified, which typically requires that your adviser left your school or there is some other significant reason.

5. Plays a significant role (look at placement records of schools). The strength of the program you attend and the faculty you work with will play a significant role in developing you as a scholar and giving you the credentials and know-how to secure a solid job. This is especially true assuming you want to stay in academia and become a professor. I suspect this does not matter as much if you are looking to go into government or something, but if that was the case you probably wouldn't be looking to get a PhD right out of undergrad.

I think the more important question to be asking is whether you want to spend the next 5-7 years working on a PhD, with the knowledge that you will be entering a very competitive challenging job market (you better really love this stuff). Having worked in the legal realm for a number of years, I can say that there is even less opportunity for solid jobs in academia coming out of a PhD program than there are in the legal community (even with the downturn).

Thank you for the detailed response. At this point, I don't think I have the "softs" (e.g. published papers, grad school-targeted LOR's, research fellowships, etc.) to compete for a top 10 PhD program right out of UG, which is why I would consider doing the MA before the PhD. I would not mind working 5-7 years and living on poverty level income if it means I get to do something I like (at this point, I am fairly sure this is what I want to pursue, even if it means facing a tough job market). But if so, I would also want to make sure that I maximize my opportunities for future success, which ITE, most likely means a top 10 program. Out of curiosity, Adaptations, would you recommend any "feeder" MA programs which have had high levels of success for sending graduates to prestigious PhD programs?

What other job types are available to a Ph.D. in polisci?

Edit:

You also need to consider that few law schools offer any funding to students whatsoever, so the overall financial exposure of attending law school might be riskier. Working as a barista with a Ph.D. might be humiliating, but it ain't like working as a barista with a J.D. and 120K in debt to service.

My sentiments exactly. What turns most people off, including myself, about the JD is the ridiculous debt you incur along with it. So many people I've talked to have said that it really does constrict your career options upon graduation. Growing up in a relatively poor household, I would have no problems with continuing my current standard of living if it means: 1) I can be relatively debt free, and 2) I get to do something I actually like.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Jim Hoyl

[GopherGrad]

Jim,

The notion of a master's is somewhat at odds with your goal of staying out of debt. Considering your articulated purpose of pursuing a master's (LoRs; publication), you will need to attend a two year institution which will probably not fund you. Bills will rack up to nearly law school proportions and scholarships for MAs are even less abundant than for JDs. Nevertheless, two MA programs that show up on my radar are Marquette and MIT.

With respect to the issue of the "toughness of the market"; some words of grizzled wisdom I might expect Jud to agree with:

I graduated into one of the best legal markets of all time from a law school with a great national reputation and tons of my classmates became quickly disillusioned with practice. They complained often and loudly about not being able to find work that matched their pre-law expectations. "Tough market" was not the nomenclature of the day, but the gist of the rhetoric was the same: "I came to law school to get job X and now can't find it; WTF happened?".

I thought it might be the consequence of attending a T20 instead of a T5, but T5ers have the same issues. Then I thought that might be a legal thing, but doctor friends had the same complaints. I've been reading this board and others like it for years and whether it's Ph.D. students or IR MAs out in the job market the message is the same. This has led me to a startling and revelatory conclusion:

Work sucks.

Most combinations of jobs and people are not fully satisfactory, and people (pretty much all people) have a hard time developing a realistic sense of what working job X will be like until they are there.

The market is certainly tough now and I'm not suggesting anyone totally ignore evidence and opinions about relative toughness. But part of the dynamic here is the disjunct between our ambitions and the reality of working life. You can't completely research or mitigate away the sizable risk that a given job will leave you feeling unsatisfied.

[Jim Hoyl]

Jim,

The notion of a master's is somewhat at odds with your goal of staying out of debt. Considering your articulated purpose of pursuing a master's (LoRs; publication), you will need to attend a two year institution which will probably not fund you. Bills will rack up to nearly law school proportions and scholarships for MAs are even less abundant than for JDs. Nevertheless, two MA programs that show up on my radar are Marquette and MIT.

With respect to the issue of the "toughness of the market"; some words of grizzled wisdom I might expect Jud to agree with:

I graduated into one of the best legal markets of all time from a law school with a great national reputation and tons of my classmates became quickly disillusioned with practice. They complained often and loudly about not being able to find work that matched their pre-law expectations. "Tough market" was not the nomenclature of the day, but the gist of the rhetoric was the same: "I came to law school to get job X and now can't find it; WTF happened?".

I thought it might be the consequence of attending a T20 instead of a T5, but T5ers have the same issues. Then I thought that might be a legal thing, but doctor friends had the same complaints. I've been reading this board and others like it for years and whether it's Ph.D. students or IR MAs out in the job market the message is the same. This has led me to a startling and revelatory conclusion:

Work sucks.

Most combinations of jobs and people are not fully satisfactory, and people (pretty much all people) have a hard time developing a realistic sense of what working job X will be like until they are there.

The market is certainly tough now and I'm not suggesting anyone totally ignore evidence and opinions about relative toughness. But part of the dynamic here is the disjunct between our ambitions and the reality of working life. You can't completely research or mitigate away the sizable risk that a given job will leave you feeling unsatisfied.

Yes, admittedly, much of my perception of what it's like to study/work as a PhD/Professor comes from hanging around the PhD's/Professors at my current UG institution, which probably isn't an accurate sample of the PhD/Professor population as a whole. Perhaps my earlier statement was premature. As of now, I am still just trying to gather as much information as possible and make the best decision going forward. As far as pursuing a Master's degree first, I've been searching all over the internet for information regarding tuition rates for 2-year Political Science Master's degrees, but haven't been able to find any specific figures so far. Assuming that I receive zero funding, how far back would such a degree set me financially? Also, given option A of attending a top 40 PhD program with funding, and option B of getting a Masters first (while paying sticker tuition) in order to increase one's chances of being admitted to a top 10 PhD program, which option would you go with given the importance of institution attended to future career prospects?

Edited December 28, 2010 by Jim Hoyl

[GopherGrad]

Jim,

Just in case, please remember that my missive about work was not meant to malign your ability to analyze your options; it's a human weakness.

Costs are dependent upon tuition and living expenses. Tuition you can calculate program to program, but it will be 20K+/year. It is fairly hard to live on less than 15K, and that's if you resign yourself to utter poverty. So $70K minimum. Unless you work, in which case you are distracted from academics.

Is an MA worth the money? That's tough calculus. If I could wipe my debt slate clean and ask: would I pay $70K to guarantee a T10 over a T40 I think I'd say yes. But will your MA have that effect? Crap shoot.

My bottom line advice: apply for a few Ph.D. programs that really interest you. Investigate placement; I think you will find that T10 is not really necessary to meet your career goals I looked T30). Look for a balance of prestige and fit that is realistic. In the same cycle, apply for a couple MAs. Gauge the response from the doctorate programs and make a judgment call about MAs. MA deadlines are normally later, so you will have time to solicit reactions. If you are close to dream programs "but for" some experience, take the MA. IF not, either seek the qualifications that make you competitive or reconsider law school.