Terminal M.A. to different Ph.D., vs. M.A. leading to Ph.D.

[Quarex]

While obviously the Ph.D. is the ultimate goal for most everyone posting here, it is certainly the case that there are two very different paths you could take to get there, at least if you are assuming no previous graduate work in the field. You can either find a school with a good terminal master's program, and then move on to a school with a doctoral program, or try to get directly into the doctorate (and likely end up getting a master's from that school anyway).

My situation, one I know I share with at least a few others I have spoken with in private here and elsewhere, is thus: My application for doctoral programs was not terribly strong, though it was good enough to get into a few Ph.D. programs, including a (very) modest assistantship from one. The jury is still out on four of my applications, two of which are promising. All that said, I also sent out an application for the terminal M.A. program from the school where I received my master's in another field--and, naturally, to make my choice difficult, they accepted me with the best financial package I have yet been offered.

Even though no-one in my life, professional or personal, has come out and said it yet, I cannot help but wonder if it would look suspicious as to why I just "stayed" at the same school (with a year break working across the country at least) if I was going to change fields, and why I did not just get a degree in that field in the first place. I could easily and excellently explain my field shift, but whether I would have the chance to explain is another question. Essentially, I am trying to figure out if my chances of admittances with funding, or a my general chances of admission, would increase enough the next time I applied to doctorates to justify biting the bullet and going back, or whether I should be happy that I have the chance to prove myself (and hopefully one day get funding) somewhere else, even though with that choice I could also just end up $100,000 in debt.

While obviously it is hard to say if anyone here has any direct experience with taking this route, or even in engaging in the admissions process and seeing people who took this route. But maybe we can at least get some sense of how people are perceived who come into the process with terminal master's degrees versus those who apply directly to the Ph.D.; are they seen as less academic? Less serious? Just more financially sound? Neutral?

[Peter]

I've mentioned this before, but I did a terminal MA and then applied to PhD and I'm content with the options open to me.

I can tell you that from my literally no-name state school there were four of us who applied from the terminal MA in POLS program to PhD programs. All of us were accepted somewhere. Three of us have funded offers, and it's likely the fourth person will have solid funding after the first year. We all had a range of GRE scores (we're looking at a range of around 1050-1370) and were admitted to a range of programs. Our tuition is about 3.5K a year (very cheap) our school is not in the slightest bit prestigious, but we worked hard, had solid GPA's and had professors who knew us well (small program= pretty detailed letters).

SO, from this I can tell you the following---a terminal MA is, I think, absolutely not going to make you look like a slacker candidate. If you choose the right program, I think it could really help your application, and given that I think you've mentioned having an MA currently in something like criminal justice (?) I think showing commitment to the field is important. My BA was in English and without an MA or serious classes in POLS my chances of PhD acceptances were, of course, low.

That said, I can tell you that a terminal MA will likely not shave off time to your PHD--which means you should know going into the terminal MA that you'll spend two years doing graduate work there only to have to complete the full MA/PhD combo elsewhere (this is what I've found). So I'd ask yourself whether you're ok with spending at least 7 years (MA +MA/PhD) in grad classes. I am honestly struggling to stomach this thought right now. I mean, seriously, why should I retake Comparative Democratization? And I really don't care much about retaking Am. Political Behavior and crunching more numbers for why people vote the way they do. Sorry, just a rant...

Also, I'd think about your GRE scores (I'm not sure what yours are right now)--I'm finding these scores (to get into a "good funded program") are very important. Whatever you do next year, I'd spend serious time studying for these. While students in my program with lower scores found placement, the higher the score the better the placement, generally...

As for the 100,000 debt---dude, that honestly seems really high. Granted, it will be easier to get into a "good" school coming from a "good" school, but you've got 10 years after graduation to pay back your loans, so if you've got 100,000 out (depending on your int. rate) that's going to be some pretty substantial monthly payments... just something to consider....IT IS A GAMBLE going to the state school option near you, and you need to work really hard there, but you can avoid piles of debt...

Hope this helps.

[alanapsci]

In my opinion 100,000 in debt is not something that you want to do! It would take forever to pay off not to mention each months payments would making living (if you plan to have a family) increadibly difficult. I did a terminal MA at GMU, as you know, and I am very happy I made that decision.(at that time they did not have the PhD program) And yes, I had to make peace with the fact that I did 2 extra years of work than someone who came from undergrad straight to PhD but I think it was a good move for me to shore up my GPA and prove that I could to PhD work while having access to the DC area for conferences and networking. Now, about going back to the same school... I can't tell you if that is a wise idea but as my professors say.. you have to move on in life. They kept telling me not to apply near GMU for my PhD because you have to move on and meet new people and create new experiences. I do beleive you have a girlfriend you are trying to stay close too???? But sometimes we have to make a choice and I am doing that right now, moving to UConn away from my b-friend who lives and works in DC (and is getting his CS MA at GMU) and will not be moving with me.(we are still staying together but who knows). If I were you, I would do an MA (are you accepted into any programs where the MA would allow you to get into their PhD program easily? I know UConn has said it is super easy to switch into). You never know what you will publish or what opportunities will be presented to you during your MA or during your MA to PhD process.

Good Luck!

[silencio1982]

Hi Quarex. I think I may have shared this info with you at some point but figured I would post it here- I have a "terminal" MA in poli sci- from a Ph.D. granting program but I was only admitted for the M.A. straight out of college. I don't think my MA hurt me at all- in fact, I think it helped immensely in that it proved I could do graduate work and be successful, and also helped me get new recs- from profs in a new subfield. My MA was concentrated in theory but my interests began to change to more IR and comparative stuff. So, anticipating that I would switch subfields for my eventual PhD, I wrote a big research paper on IR/comparative before I left (which I ended up presenting at a conference) and worked closely with comparative and IR profs, 2 of those wrote my LORs. So I guess my point is, in general I don't think the actual fact of having a terminal MA would hurt or help you either way. However, If you can use it to your advantage to boost your application by creating proof that you have experience to research in your chosen subfield and forge new relationships with profs who can write you LORs, I think it helps. I jumped a lot in the rankings between my MA program and my PhD program. (Depending on whose rankings you use, my PhD program is on the cusp of top 25, and my MA program was more in the 60-70 range.) So, I certainly think there are benefits to a terminal MA. Also, FWIW, students and faculty I talked to in top 25 programs said it would not hurt to have an MA, and that there's usually a significant minority of students who enter already having an MA. (Then again, I didn't get into any indisputable top 25 programs, so I guess I'll never know for sure.)

All that being said, since I'm switching subfields I will probably end up getting another MA anyway- though it seems my program may be receptive to transferring over some coursework. So, it won't really help in terms of speeding things up, but I might not have to repeat some of the courses I've taken.

Frankly, I would go for the money- you'll do all the right things to strengthen your app in your MA program, and can easily say in your SOP that you used your MA to explore X topics of interest and prepare you for doctoral work. I'd rather do that and improve my chances of getting into a better, funded PhD program.

Good luck!!

[browneyedgirl]

I completed a terminal MA from the same institution as my BA, and neither of my undergraduate majors were the same as the MA, though one was related. provided you can do a master's without completely overextending yourself financially, I think it's a great plan. I am very glad I went through the program (I was able to do an accelerated program that came with a good amount of aid, which didn't hurt), mostly because it prepared me to continue doing graduate work, brought me in contact with new faculty/sources of information/possible LOR writers, and gave me some additional time to research, write, and present before applying to the PhD.

as I mentioned on a different thread, it seemed that the vast majority of fellow prospectives I met at visit weekends already held an MA (some had other advanced degrees, like JDs) and, while US schools don't require the MA as a pre-req (at least, I haven't seen one that does), it's becoming so commonplace that you almost have to have one to be competitive. I'm anticipating negative feedback from that statement, but it's my perception of the admitted population I met at the schools I visited.

that said, I don't see why you can't address a change in fields or a certain academic choice in your application. if there's really no way to fit it in, why not contact professors of interest while you're working on the PhD application and mention it to them during your back-and-forth?

*edit* - also, I addressed my decision to change fields (all related) from x to y to z (BA, MA, PhD) in my application, as well as the reason why I took time between the MA and PhD. I didn't know as an undergrad that I'd want to work toward a PhD. I admitted this and wrote about what changed my mind, what topics inspired me, what questions I wanted to answer as a grad student. rather than feeling you need to apologize for changing fields, portray it as a strength, something like "I've already done abc and now I want to do xyz and here's how I plan to do it and here's how I'm showing you I'm committed to this." some people are destined to be PhD students and will tell you they've known since age 10 that they wanted to be professors. me? not so much. but I know now that it's what I want to do, and that, in my opinion, is what matters most.

[Quarex]

Hey, great responses, everybody. I remembered that you two were in my situation, Peter and Alana, but I actually did forget that you, Silencio, were as well. And while this forum is not particularly teeming with elitism, I personally appreciate that the people popping up here are definitely amongst the most down-to-Earth. I will be in good company.

Peter said:

I can tell you that from my literally no-name state school there were four of us who applied from the terminal MA in POLS program to PhD programs. All of us were accepted....to a range of programs (UCSB, Hawaii, Riverside, Univ. of Washington, GWU, UVA, UCDavis). Our tuition is about 3.5K a year (very cheap) our school is not in the slightest bit prestigious, but we worked hard, had solid GPA's and had professors who knew us well (small program= pretty detailed letters)....If you choose the right program, I think it could really help your application, and given that I think you've mentioned having an MA currently in something like criminal justice (?) I think showing commitment to the field is important. My BA was in English and without an MA or serious classes in POLS my chances of PhD acceptances were, of course, low.

I am sorry that your state school literally had no name. That must make transcripts difficult. Yes, indeed, my master's degree is in Criminal Justice, and the main reason I thought I had any chance at all is that field's obvious links with security and privacy issues. But there is no substitute for study in the field.

Peter said:

As for the 100,000 debt---dude, that honestly seems really high. Granted, it will be easier to get into a "good" school coming from a "good" school, but you've got 10 years after graduation to pay back your loans, so if you've got 100,000 out (depending on your int. rate) that's going to be some pretty substantial monthly payments... just something to consider....IT IS A GAMBLE going to the state school option near you, and you need to work really hard there, but you can avoid piles of debt...

The global affairs program that accepted me has such a high tuition, and bleak enough funding prospects, that I would have to work part-time and finish quickly just to keep it as LOW as 100,000. But I also just got accepted to the public policy program at George Mason, finally nabbing a school that also accepted my girlfriend, so the 100,000 option is confidently off the table now.

IN CONCLUSION, what I want is a funded doctoral offer from a solid institution doing interesting work in my field. The chances of me getting that in this cycle are slim, and I have often heard that going into a doctoral program unfunded, particularly if they start you at the master's level, may just get you exploited or ignored. Most of the schools who admitted me at all are willing to bring students in at the doctoral level if they already have a master's in political science, so in a way it makes entirely too much sense to go get a master's degree in a place I will be funded and have a faculty who actually wants to pay attention to me. But Alana's point is good, too--you should get out there and see what the world has for you, lest you get too accustomed to what you already have. What I do have going for me in that respect is a lifetime of world travel, including living abroad for about 3 years total, thanks both to my Fulbright-hopping father dragging us around and my own studies. I at least know what the world outside my alma mater looks like. That is why it is so hard to decide if I should go back. But, who knows?

The "go someplace not that necessarily awesome, but do better than everyone else, and then end up winning!" scenario sounds pretty good. I just might do that. At least if I do not take this public policy Ph.D. offer to not be apart from my girlfriend, despite that clearly being not the 100% best reason to go somewhere. At least the program is pretty well ranked and in the D.C. metro area.

browneyedgirl said:

*edit* - also, I addressed my decision to change fields (all related) from x to y to z (BA, MA, PhD) in my application, as well as the reason why I took time between the MA and PhD. I didn't know as an undergrad that I'd want to work toward a PhD. I admitted this and wrote about what changed my mind, what topics inspired me, what questions I wanted to answer as a grad student. rather than feeling you need to apologize for changing fields, portray it as a strength, something like "I've already done abc and now I want to do xyz and here's how I plan to do it and here's how I'm showing you I'm committed to this." some people are destined to be PhD students and will tell you they've known since age 10 that they wanted to be professors. me? not so much. but I know now that it's what I want to do, and that, in my opinion, is what matters most.

I went almost the opposite route from you with my statement of purpose, and while I do not think it kept me out of any programs (my record took care of that), I imagine I might have had a better chance to get funding if I had done what you suggested. "Look, yeah, I know, my background sounds irrelevant. But it is the progression that brought me to thinking that these research interests are the most important thing in the world. I am going to be the best student ever. Go!"

[alanapsci]

Quarex---

Let us know what you choose! (I assume you choose GMU??) I will be interested to know. GMU public policy program is fantastic! Congrats on getting in and it's great that you found a place where both you and your girlfriend can go!

:mrgreen:

[lenin333]

Man, I would run to GMU. I got lucky and got into Toronto with a PhD offer but my back up was a 2 year MA economics at GMU. How can you go wrong with Cowen, Caplan, Kling, Roberts, and Hanson??? Not to mention their Nobels...well just one now.

[Quarex]

Quarex---

Let us know what you choose! (I assume you choose GMU??) I will be interested to know. GMU public policy program is fantastic! Congrats on getting in and it's great that you found a place where both you and your girlfriend can go!

:mrgreen:

You certainly would think I would have chosen by now! Of course George Mason is tempting. But my full-ride terminal master's offer is also tempting (I think the net savings would be about $50,000 for the course of my master's, at least if I did not get funding at George Mason), particularly since I could finish my coursework in a year and either take comps or (more likely for my verbose self) move to wherever my girlfriend was and take another semester to apply to schools again and write another thesis.

I would also like for the three schools I am accepted to/accepted near (I am looking at you, Kansas, Arizona State, and Wisconsin-Madison) that have still not made their admissions decisions for my girlfriend's field to hurry up already. Surely they know they have to get this information out, you know, BEFORE April 15?

Man, I would run to GMU. I got lucky and got into Toronto with a PhD offer but my back up was a 2 year MA economics at GMU. How can you go wrong with Cowen, Caplan, Kling, Roberts, and Hanson??? Not to mention their Nobels...well just one now.

Ha, you had me all excited briefly that I had blatantly overlooked a Nobel prize winner in George Mason's public policy department. Darn economics. Granted, I could certainly take some courses from that department. It would likely do me a world of good!