Princeton History Teaching Experience - Disadvantage on the Job Market?

[Prospect]

Hi,

I have got an offer of admission to the History department at Princeton. I have heard very good things about the department. However I also gather that the lack of an obligation to teach and/or teaching oppurtunities (as a doctoral student) can be a disadvantage when looking for a job later. Any knowledge, or opinions?

[Contate]

Hello,

If I am not mistaken you can choose to TA if want to after you finish your course work. I think this is an advantage. It is certainly not a good idea to have to teach while your take intense classes and study for your examinations. I my mind, At Princeton you get the benefit of being able to completely focus on your studies and then teach whenever you feel ready. I know people who had to teach (and I mean teach not TA) their very first semester in graduate school just to survive; it was not pretty. Moreover, as you may have noticed in the acceptance letter, if you choose to TA after finishing your coursework you get money above and beyond your regular stipend; not even other Ivy leagues give this kind of money and opportunity. Let me also say that it seems to me that when history departments hire new people they pay more attention to your actual research and historiographical production than to your teaching experience. Many of my professors have confirmed this to me. Perhaps this is not smart, but it is how it mostly happens. Last year I was present at interviews for a new hire in the history department of my undergraduate institution. All candidates presented their work, and the person who got the job was the person with the most exciting and thoroughly researched dissertation. There was one person who handed out 10 sample syllabi and had extensive teaching experience, but the other people just had better research and a better dissertation. In my view, do not be afraid of Princeton; you can focus on producing good research and writing and then choose to TA if you wish and as time allows.

Best.

Hi,

I have got an offer of admission to the History department at Princeton. I have heard very good things about the department. However I also gather that the lack of an obligation to teach and/or teaching oppurtunities (as a doctoral student) can be a disadvantage when looking for a job later. Any knowledge, or opinions?

[natsteel]

Let me also say that it seems to me that when history departments hire new people they pay more attention to your actual research and historiographical production than to your teaching experience. Many of my professors have confirmed this to me. Perhaps this is not smart, but it is how it mostly happens. Last year I was present at interviews for a new hire in the history department of my undergraduate institution. All candidates presented their work, and the person who got the job was the person with the most exciting and thoroughly researched dissertation. There was one person who handed out 10 sample syllabi and had extensive teaching experience, but the other people just had better research and a better dissertation. In my view, do not be afraid of Princeton; you can focus on producing good research and writing and then choose to TA if you wish and as time allows.

We should make a distinction between R1 and SLACs. A research university will likely be more interested in a candidate's research and publishing production, while smaller liberal arts schools focus more on teaching. Someone with very limited teaching experience will be at a slight disadvantage compared to someone with more extensive teaching experience when applying to these types of institutions. And, because jobs at R1 schools are increasingly scarce and you can't possibly predict where you will be competing for jobs 6-7 years from now, it's probably smart to try to find some sort of balance. Obviously, your research has to be of a certain quality, but likewise you must also have some real teaching experience (i.e., more than just 1 or 2 classes as a TA).

[modern]

We should make a distinction between R1 and SLACs. A research university will likely be more interested in a candidate's research and publishing production, while smaller liberal arts schools focus more on teaching. Someone with very limited teaching experience will be at a slight disadvantage compared to someone with more extensive teaching experience when applying to these types of institutions. And, because jobs at R1 schools are increasingly scarce and you can't possibly predict where you will be competing for jobs 6-7 years from now, it's probably smart to try to find some sort of balance. Obviously, your research has to be of a certain quality, but likewise you must also have some real teaching experience (i.e., more than just 1 or 2 classes as a TA).

Actually, in most top programs you'll have no more than two semesters as TA (even if you are supposed to do more than that according to the priginal offer) as usually the 4th year you research abroad with external funding. That's the case at Yale, for instance, and the placement has hardly been a problem for ther alumni recently.

[StrangeLight]

i also know of some research 1 universities that passed over candidates from "top 10" programs because there was the concern that they would not be able to teach (e.g. only one semester as a TA or one semester as a visiting scholar). the concern was less with the ability to teach undergrads than with the ability to lead graduate seminars or advise grad students. TAing for 3-4 years won't necessarily make you a good advisor or seminar leader, but having no teaching experience will raise a red flag at any school, including the R1s.

princeton lets you TA, if you want to. you should. for a semester or two. wait until you're post-comps and post-research year and teach for a year as you process your data and build your arguments for your dissertation. then when you're actually ready to start writing, stop TAing again.

some programs will offer students 5 years of funding, all of it as a TA. that's not good and you should not envy them or let them spin 5 years of slave labour into a positive.

Edited March 6, 2011 by StrangeLight

[modern]

Bottom line is that this is absolutely not a reason to turn down Princeton, but rather an advantage. I'm sure the faculty are well aware of how important teaching is for your CV and will act accordingly.

[Contate]

Just a reminder: Princeton has a stellar placement record by all accounts. Whatever they are doing, it seems to be working. I am sure they have a very good career advising system in place.

Bottom line is that this is absolutely not a reason to turn down Princeton, but rather an advantage. I'm sure the faculty are well aware of how important teaching is for your CV and will act accordingly.

[natsteel]

Actually, in most top programs you'll have no more than two semesters as TA (even if you are supposed to do more than that according to the priginal offer) as usually the 4th year you research abroad with external funding. That's the case at Yale, for instance, and the placement has hardly been a problem for ther alumni recently.

For an Americanist at Yale with no need to go abroad, it is highly possible to do more than two semesters as a TA if one so desires. They expect you to TA in years 3 and 4, but you can also teach in year 5 if you don't take the University Dissertation Fellowship until year 6.

Edited March 7, 2011 by natsteel

[Prospect]

Just a reminder: Princeton has a stellar placement record by all accounts. Whatever they are doing, it seems to be working. I am sure they have a very good career advising system in place.

What are the "all accounts" you are referring to, if you don't mind me asking? If this is a silly question, my apologies -I haven't the faintest idea about about U.S academic job market scene, and the track record of different universities. I am considering offers from Columbia and Michigan as well, but I lean towards Princeton.

[StrangeLight]

princeton publishes their placement record for the last 10 years. just check their website.

out of curiosity, i looked up the last 3 years, and was actually a little shocked. in 2008, of the 20 PhDs granted (which sounds like a lot to me, i'm in a tiny program), only 4 students received tenure-track positions. these are at great schools (northwestern, michigan, u of oregon), but still... only 4. some were lecturers or visiting assistant professors, many were on fellowships, 3 or 4 had gone into industry consulting, one is a high school principal, and two or three have nothing listed, which means that at the time the file was created, they didn't have a job related to their academic field.

i honestly don't really know what to make of this. some students get TT jobs at the top schools, some leave academia. i'm not sure i'd consider 4 of 20 a good placement record for TT jobs, but i guess many of those postdocs will get TT jobs eventually? they're probably getting more teaching experience at the postdoc positions too.

edit: in 2009, 7 of 13 received TT jobs, again at universities you've actually heard of. others are postdocs, lecturers, or no position is given. in 2010, 10 of 19 have tenure track jobs, again most of them at great universities (columbia, cambridge, CUNY, etc.).

on the website, you can see who the advisors were, where the students were placed, and what their dissertation was called. this is way more information than many top programs will give out (columbia has had a broken link to a list of their placements for at least 4 years!), which suggests that princeton feels pretty good about their own track record.

Edited March 7, 2011 by StrangeLight

[Jeppe]

Actually, in most top programs you'll have no more than two semesters as TA (even if you are supposed to do more than that according to the priginal offer) as usually the 4th year you research abroad with external funding. That's the case at Yale, for instance, and the placement has hardly been a problem for ther alumni recently.

The standard for most Yale grad students is to teach two years. Just saying.

[NewEnglandNat]

There is the TAing option, but I am surprised no one else has mentioned how many Princeton grad students get teaching experiance. There area great many adjunct dependent history departments in New Jersey that often hire Princeton students. TCNJ is one off the top of my head.