Older Student and Recommendations

[Milo_10011]

I'm an older student (39 years old) trying for an MA (then a PhD). I need two letters of recommendation. Regrettably, most of the professors who knew me well enough to be able to write a recommendation were from my undergraduate days in journalism school. Undergraduate is something like 20 years ago and in a different field. I have gone back to school intermittently for the past few years (some courses here, some courses there, mainly just to keep my brain from going soft). Two of my most recent teachers were graduate students/doctoral students in history courses. I did very well in those courses.

Here's the questions I'm mulling:

1. Is a letter from an associate professor who was teaching a history course "good enough"? Most of the courses I took were of the 300 students crammed in an auditorium variety, so there wasn't a lot of opportunity to make an impression.

2. Because of my age, is using a professional evaluation from a former employer (who also now teaches at WashU) better (or equivalent)?

3. Mix and match? One teacher and one former boss?

Thanks.

[thesnout]

I'd say pick the strongest and mix and max. You should definitely use your former employer. Try to use a professor/teacher too if you can. Adcoms are interested in your capacity to learn and do the work effectively at a higher level. Try your best to make an impression. Stay after class and chat it up with the teachers. Ask questions. Sit near the front. These things will get you noticed.

[nogone]

I'd mix and match. One recent teacher, and one former boss. I don't think any school would expect you to successfully track down professors from undergrad at this point, and professional recommendations are perfectly acceptable in your case.

I'm not quite as old as you, though I've been out of undergrad long enough that the professors I had relationships with are retired! To top it off, I've been self employed for the last few years, so finding three letters of recommendation was really a challenge. It sounds like you've got some good ideas, so if any of them are willing, go for it.

[Milo_10011]

I'd mix and match. One recent teacher, and one former boss. I don't think any school would expect you to successfully track down professors from undergrad at this point, and professional recommendations are perfectly acceptable in your case.

I'm not quite as old as you, though I've been out of undergrad long enough that the professors I had relationships with are retired! To top it off, I've been self employed for the last few years, so finding three letters of recommendation was really a challenge. It sounds like you've got some good ideas, so if any of them are willing, go for it.

No one is as old as me.

As old as I?

Me. No, I, I me, oh, me don't know.

[UnlikelyGrad]

No one is as old as me.

As old as I?

Me. No, I, I me, oh, me don't know.

Oh, we've had 50yo grad wannabes on here.

I'm 39 also, btw, though I jumped the LoR hurdle at 36.

[emmm]

Oh, we've had 50yo grad wannabes on here.

I'm 39 also, btw, though I jumped the LoR hurdle at 36.

Yeah -- but didi the 50 yo wannabes make it in?

I'm in my 40s, and I went to an interview where my first interviewer told me she didn't think it made sense for me to do a PhD. It would be long, hard, and iffy. And if I made it, then what? A postdoc? A job? -- umm ... yeah? Isn't that the general idea?

[beanbagchairs]

Yeah -- but didi the 50 yo wannabes make it in?

I'm in my 40s, and I went to an interview where my first interviewer told me she didn't think it made sense for me to do a PhD. It would be long, hard, and iffy. And if I made it, then what? A postdoc? A job? -- umm ... yeah? Isn't that the general idea?

I believe another forum member, GoldenMonkey, is in his/her 40s (I saw it on the "how old are you going to be when you start your grad school" thread). I think he got (an) admit(s).

As to the OP question, I think one letter from prof and one letter from a former employer works well. The latter can talk about your life/job experience, which those young undergrads lack.

[UnlikelyGrad]

Yeah -- but didi the 50 yo wannabes make it in?

I'm pretty sure at least one of them did...

Personally, I think the age-ist bias is a lot stronger at top-tier schools. If you're willing to apply to a second-tier school, I think it would be worth your while. (I don't just mean admissions bias...I got into a top-tier school, but to tell the honest truth, the bias there was bad enough I didn't think I'd be comfortable doing research. There were other things there that made me uncomfortable, though, so it wasn't just the bias that kept me away.)

Even though I have my heart set on academia, I know the odds that any decent program is going to offer me a TT position at (?)45 are pretty slim. I'm pretty resigned to going to a bottom-of-the-barrel school. But I love to teach, so that's OK with me.

[Golden Monkey]

I believe another forum member, GoldenMonkey, is in his/her 40s (I saw it on the "how old are you going to be when you start your grad school" thread). I think he got (an) admit(s).

As to the OP question, I think one letter from prof and one letter from a former employer works well. The latter can talk about your life/job experience, which those young undergrads lack.

Yep, I'm 43. Started my master's at 40 and have one PhD admit.

To the OP, I'd use employers/colleagues. When I applied for my master's I had been out of school for so long (aside from a class here and there,) that any profs I'd had in the past wouldn't have remembered me or would have been retired by then anyway.

[Golden Monkey]

Even though I have my heart set on academia, I know the odds that any decent program is going to offer me a TT position at (?)45 are pretty slim.

Do you think this is really true? 45 is only halfway through ones expected lifespan and career. Geez, you still have 20 years left to work, so I don't get why 45 seems too old for TT positions.

[emmm]

Well, I'm still hopeful, but it may take another cycle. At least I now have good leads on lab positions, to strengthen what I know is a weak spot in my applications.

Unfortunately, I have absolutely NO school choice -- I can't move.

[Golden Monkey]

I'm pretty sure at least one of them did...

Personally, I think the age-ist bias is a lot stronger at top-tier schools. If you're willing to apply to a second-tier school, I think it would be worth your while. (I don't just mean admissions bias...I got into a top-tier school, but to tell the honest truth, the bias there was bad enough I didn't think I'd be comfortable doing research. There were other things there that made me uncomfortable, though, so it wasn't just the bias that kept me away.)

Even though I have my heart set on academia, I know the odds that any decent program is going to offer me a TT position at (?)45 are pretty slim. I'm pretty resigned to going to a bottom-of-the-barrel school. But I love to teach, so that's OK with me.

I also wonder if the age bias is a bit less prevalent for those of us in technology-related fields? With my one admission so far, they seem to be more impressed with my years of closely-related industry work than anything else. I most certainly wouldn't have had that at a younger age.

[UnlikelyGrad]

Do you think this is really true? 45 is only halfway through ones expected lifespan and career. Geez, you still have 20 years left to work, so I don't get why 45 seems too old for TT positions.

Not all people have this view (obviously, I'm one of them! ) but some do...

My sister went on the TT market at 39, which is a lot younger than I'll be, and she said that there were definitely schools that rejected her for being too old. (Of course, they didn't say that "on the record" since that would be illegal, but they dropped enough hints that she got the message.)

She went on to get two good job offers, though, and is now at a school which is consistently ranked somewhere in the top-5 for her field. So I am hopeful I can get *something*, even though I'm not a research superstar like she is.

My dad is 70 and still hasn't slowed down, so I'm hoping I can offer any university I work for a good 25+ years of service.

[Golden Monkey]

I guess for me, the path I'd eventually like to take is an either/or thing. A TT job would be great, but an R&D think-tanky job would also be great. I don't know if others think of their "what ifs," like "what if I had decided to do this at the normal age?" but all you have to do is look at CVs of people the same age as you who are in TT positions, then compare your CV to theirs. Yes, sure pursuing a PhD would have resulted in more papers published, conferences, classes taught, etc., but in my case it also would have resulted in much less real-world industry experience. When I looked at CVs of professors my age, I realized that they had little-to-no industry experience, and I wouldn't want to be in that situation either.

Which gets us almost back to the original subject of LORs/CVs for us older people. When I was re-writing my long-form CV (as opposed to my short-form resume,) I was stumped as to what to put in the papers published, conferences, classes taught, exhibitions, etc. I mean, I had nothing to put in that section, even after completing my master's. So then I looked at all the high-profile industry projects I had worked on since the early 90s, and reformatted those in CV format and listed them instead.

Not sure how impressive that was to adcomms, but I thought it looked pretty good.