Advice for Next Year

[The Man Who Is Thursday]

Well, the dust has settled and I didn't get in anywhere.

Anyway, not looking for sympathy or anything, so don't worry. To be honest, after the initial depression passed, I'm kind of excited to just have a year off. I've got a job and a place to live, so nothing critical was riding on my acceptance (I don't have any debt, either). Not getting accepted isn't too surprising, as I really had no idea what I was doing and only admitted to myself that I wanted to study theology (instead of American history, my major) in October 2010, which probably wasn't the best idea. Haha.

But the point of this thread is to ask advice from all of you who *were* accepted this year. What should I do to bolster my resume in the next year? Take language classes? Teach abroad somewhere? Work at a soup kitchen on weekends? What would you recommend?

A little info about myself, I suppose, is apposite. I'm an evangelical protestant (I know, gah! Shun!), with typically conservative leanings by comparison here (though my brethren think me decidedly liberal). Oddly, I have a rather strange love for eastern orthodox theology.

• 3.94 GPA
• 1360 GRE (660 V, 700 Q) w/ 4.5 for writing
• Over a year of work experience at a Christian academic organization (still work there now)
• Working on an honors thesis on a theological topic, and was nominated for an outstanding achievement award by my primary thesis advisor (no word on who wins yet, though I doubt a theology paper can compete with some science whizkid, haha)
• (Currently) three quarters of French, and two of Ancient Greek (though I'm still taking at least one of those classes this spring)

Now, I realize that my GRE isn't the highest, but I think that my biggest problem was the lack of language experience. Though I really have no idea, I'm just speculating.

Any advice/ideas on what I should do during this next year? I really wanted to get into Notre Dame's MTS program, but I see that I'm not yet qualified for it. Is it worth applying again next year, or should I just direct my energy towards something more within reach?

Thanks in advance. I really appreciate these boards! I should have made more use of them during the whole application process...

[vega maudlin]

I'm not sure it has so much to do with the languages. I have French (for years and years, plus some experience with medieval French) and some Koine Greek (the latter I have just studied on my own since graduating in '09), but that only showed up in a corner of my resume, really -- and, I guess, in my writing sample.

That said... I would not have been accepted/funded at these programs if I'd applied my senior year of college. I graduated, took a year to work odd jobs and think about what I wanted to do next (and, more importantly, why I wanted to do it) -- and, a year and some after graduating, I applied. I'm really glad I took time off. I have several crappy novel drafts, a much more eclectic resume, and an incomplete knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, and German as a result -- nothing to write home about -- but the time I took off was invaluable for figuring out what was important to me and what I wanted to do with my life. Cliche but true.

Your SOP will be much stronger if you do so, methinks. Actually having finished your honors thesis will also make a difference -- at least for me, it's hard to evaluate huge projects like that until, as you say, the dust has settled a bit.

In summation: get some distance, think very hard about what you're trying to accomplish by going to grad school in religion, and rewrite your statement of purpose accordingly. Audience you're trying to reach, gap in scholarship you're trying to fill, etc.

And to answer your last question, I would *both* apply for ND again, and shoot for somewhere more "within reach." Can't hurt to try, can't hurt to have a safety

Well, the dust has settled and I didn't get in anywhere.

Anyway, not looking for sympathy or anything, so don't worry. To be honest, after the initial depression passed, I'm kind of excited to just have a year off. I've got a job and a place to live, so nothing critical was riding on my acceptance (I don't have any debt, either). Not getting accepted isn't too surprising, as I really had no idea what I was doing and only admitted to myself that I wanted to study theology (instead of American history, my major) in October 2010, which probably wasn't the best idea. Haha.

But the point of this thread is to ask advice from all of you who *were* accepted this year. What should I do to bolster my resume in the next year? Take language classes? Teach abroad somewhere? Work at a soup kitchen on weekends? What would you recommend?

A little info about myself, I suppose, is apposite. I'm an evangelical protestant (I know, gah! Shun!), with typically conservative leanings by comparison here (though my brethren think me decidedly liberal). Oddly, I have a rather strange love for eastern orthodox theology.

• 3.94 GPA
• 1360 GRE (660 V, 700 Q) w/ 4.5 for writing
• Over a year of work experience at a Christian academic organization (still work there now)
• Working on an honors thesis on a theological topic, and was nominated for an outstanding achievement award by my primary thesis advisor (no word on who wins yet, though I doubt a theology paper can compete with some science whizkid, haha)
• (Currently) three quarters of French, and two of Ancient Greek (though I'm still taking at least one of those classes this spring)

Now, I realize that my GRE isn't the highest, but I think that my biggest problem was the lack of language experience. Though I really have no idea, I'm just speculating.

Any advice/ideas on what I should do during this next year? I really wanted to get into Notre Dame's MTS program, but I see that I'm not yet qualified for it. Is it worth applying again next year, or should I just direct my energy towards something more within reach?

Thanks in advance. I really appreciate these boards! I should have made more use of them during the whole application process...

Edited March 15, 2011 by vega maudlin

[Phenomenologist]

What should I do to bolster my resume in the next year? Take language classes? Teach abroad somewhere? Work at a soup kitchen on weekends? What would you recommend?

• 3.94 GPA
• 1360 GRE (660 V, 700 Q) w/ 4.5 for writing
• Over a year of work experience at a Christian academic organization (still work there now)
• Working on an honors thesis on a theological topic, and was nominated for an outstanding achievement award by my primary thesis advisor (no word on who wins yet, though I doubt a theology paper can compete with some science whizkid, haha)
• (Currently) three quarters of French, and two of Ancient Greek (though I'm still taking at least one of those classes this spring)

Any advice/ideas on what I should do during this next year? I really wanted to get into Notre Dame's MTS program, but I see that I'm not yet qualified for it. Is it worth applying again next year, or should I just direct my energy towards something more within reach?

You and I seem to have much in common. I'm a conservative evangelical (by the standards on these boards), but conservative evangelicals would consider me decidedly "liberal." I also love the Anglo-Catholic-Orthodox tradition.

Great GPA, and your GRE seems just fine to me. It's obviously not as high as some of these other whipper-snappers around here, but it seems pretty good for theology programs. I do think that languages look good on a resume, but I only had Latin to note on mine.

I think the best advice is this: A good GPA and/or GRE is enough to *not get you cut* from the admissions process, but NOT enough to *get you in*. The things that get you *in* are your personal statement, your writing sample, and letters of recommendation.

Stats are just the helpful guides to make easy decisions, like "Don't consider any applications below 1200 GRE" or something. But after that, it's all statement of purpose, etc.

What bolsters a statement of purpose? Soup kitchens, teaching abroad, etc. Show a diversity of experience, leadership skills, and very importantly, clarity of purpose and direction. What constitutes a good writing sample? I think all the tenets of a good paper: clear thesis, good argumentative structure, research to support your argument, solid conclusion to tie it together. And good letters of recommendation come from strong work and good relationships with profs.

Also important: Tailor your application to the school's program. I nailed one of Yale's scholarships, and I really think I was a perfect fit for their program. But I tactfully made explicit all the ways that I am a perfect fit for it: I cited texts from Yale profs I've drawn upon, how my research in the past has overlapped with the program's curriculum, etc. And then I noted all my work in soup kitchens and overseas, too.

I'd advise applying to Notre Dame again if you strengthen your application significantly. Most applications ask: "Have you applied here in the past?" If yes, they will surely (I'm guessing) look at their records, and wonder why they rejected you last time. "There's no point in reinventing the wheel," they may say -- we've evaluated this person before, what were the weaknesses last time? If you've filled those gaps, they will consider it more strongly.

This advice is a mix of advice I received, formulas that worked for me, and complete conjecture on my part. Hope it helps!

[JonathanEdwards]

Any advice/ideas on what I should do during this next year? I really wanted to get into Notre Dame's MTS program, but I see that I'm not yet qualified for it. Is it worth applying again next year, or should I just direct my energy towards something more within reach?

The above advice from others about how to use your year off in terms of developing yourself is wise. Your qualifications don’t look to be a stumbling block, so I think the the most helpful thing I could recommend to you for next year is to look at things differently and try to understand the needs of the admissions committee. The problem is that we approach these applications like they’re generalized resume statements, or applications to an undergraduate program, but the game has changed. Let me try to explain what I’m getting at by putting it in terms of how an admissions committee might see things. Among their graduate applicants, all but a few outliers will be able to legitimately say nice things about themselves, the things that admissions committees hear all the time:

‘I have high test scores, a good academic record, a history of social involvement, and a desire to advance noble causes with my education.’

Here’s how that sounds to someone on a committee trying to sort through tons of applications and match students to research supervisors:

Yet another intelligent but unfocused applicant.

After some time ‘in the system,’ (current Ph.D. candidate) here is what I think they want to hear beyond the standard stuff above:

‘I wish to take these wonderful qualifications and pursue research into the subfield of XXX. Specifically, I am seeking to answer research question XXX. After reviewing the field for a truly expert supervisor for that research, I hope to study under the guidance of Professor XXX.’

Such a blurb may sound inconsequential to you personally next to your large donation of time volunteering, but here’s what that would communicate to me if I were on your committee:

This applicant has done their homework regarding the field, has established themselves as a good fit for one of the faculty, and will very likely not drop out after completing coursework and flailing about for a research topic.

The admissions committee’s job is not just to select promising students, but to match them with faculty possessing similar research interests. In addition, they’re looking for indicators that you will not fail to complete, becoming a bad statistic and a waste of funding and other less tangible resources. That phase where one transitions from coursework or exams to research is the most frequent time for exhausted students to crash and burn. I think this factor (proposing specific research under a specific faculty expert), which goes largely unrecognized, is part of why it seems a mystery that some people who look less qualified in terms of test scores and grades get accepted. Lacking this kind of statement is also not disqualifying, but I recommend it, as well as contacting the professor in question prior to the admissions deadline.

I hope this helps!

[Phenomenologist]

‘I have high test scores, a good academic record, a history of social involvement, and a desire to advance noble causes with my education.’

Here’s how that sounds to someone on a committee trying to sort through tons of applications and match students to research supervisors:

Yet another intelligent but unfocused applicant.

After some time ‘in the system,’ (current Ph.D. candidate) here is what I think they want to hear beyond the standard stuff above:

‘I wish to take these wonderful qualifications and pursue research into the subfield of XXX. Specifically, I am seeking to answer research question XXX. After reviewing the field for a truly expert supervisor for that research, I hope to study under the guidance of Professor XXX.’

This is perfect. It's most applicable at the PhD level, but it begins now. That is what I did in my statement.

Also a good tip: use specific examples to highlight a broader point. Instead of saying "I have a strong work ethic," you might instead talk about your life balancing academia with ministerial roles and parenting and volunteering, and how it all helped to give you a "strong work ethic." Or instead of saying "my research interests are XYZ, you might discuss a class or experience you've had where your research interests became very pronounced to you and galvanized, etc.

[The Man Who Is Thursday]

Thanks a lot for these suggestions. I will definitely take them to heart.

I know that I definitely wrote some sub-par SOPs for most of the programs I applied to, simply because of the lack of time. I had not much opportunity to share them around or get feedback aside from one or two quick drafts. The thing is, I thought that my SOP for ND was far better, but apparently it wasn't. I'll *really* have to work on that (and for the other schools) next year, it seems. The main reason I applied to Masters programs and not PhDs was because I didn't think I had enough direction. I was kind of hoping to straighten that out at the MA level, but I guess the way things work now you need to have a plan even before then. It's crazy.

I suppose I will need to just straight up email some professors and ask what to do. I'll just have to...force myself to do it, hehe.

Thanks again!

This process is brutal, but I really admire the way you approach it with seeming finesse and perspective

I gave up pessimism for lent.

[thekidisalright]

Thanks a lot for these suggestions. I will definitely take them to heart.

I know that I definitely wrote some sub-par SOPs for most of the programs I applied to, simply because of the lack of time. I had not much opportunity to share them around or get feedback aside from one or two quick drafts. The thing is, I thought that my SOP for ND was far better, but apparently it wasn't. I'll *really* have to work on that (and for the other schools) next year, it seems. The main reason I applied to Masters programs and not PhDs was because I didn't think I had enough direction. I was kind of hoping to straighten that out at the MA level, but I guess the way things work now you need to have a plan even before then. It's crazy.

I suppose I will need to just straight up email some professors and ask what to do. I'll just have to...force myself to do it, hehe.

Thanks again!

I gave up pessimism for lent.

Hi The Man,

I would definitely re-apply. (I had to suffer two rounds of the PhD process!)

Just some ND-specific thoughts from a grad of the MTS:

Languages are a good idea, but I question whether they are the most important thing at this stage. Notre Dame's language requirements stipulate *new* languages (so for the HC requirement of 2 languages, even though I already had 3 years of Greek, I had to pick up 2 more). So unlike PhD programs where they are looking for students who have already crossed some hurdles and therefore are less likely to have nervous breakdowns and fail out, any previous language work won't make your time easier at ND. What it might do is make you, in general, look like an accomplished and well-educated person and prepare you for more language study. It also might be the type of tiny thing that distinguishes excellent candidates from each other (and at the top, all are excellent). The obvious exception here would be Biblical Studies. So summary: languages are good but not awesome, and if its the easiest/cheapest thing to do with your CV then do it.

As for volunteer programs, I don't think it makes a difference. Grad schools aren't looking for well-roundedness in the way that colleges are. And even though its a theology program, ND also has an MDiv program, so there is an understood distinction that this program is *just* academic (I think the distinction is more fluid at other schools). The exception would be if it actually related to your research.

Looking at your stats, I would imagine that what is hurting you is lack of previous coursework and perhaps an unfocused personal statement. Do you know what sort of theological work you are interested in? I think my actual goal when applying for ND's MTS was "gain a knowledge of Christianity" which sounds RIDICULOUS but I was in an evangelical school where you could take Biblical Studies, and not theology, so I felt like I was missing out on 2000 years. The only theology I read was through my philosophy major. Anyhow, even though my actual goal was hopelessly vague (and looking back, quite funny) my personal statement said that I wanted to study apophatic theology and its retrieval in postmodern philosophy of religion. This did a number of things: 1) used my coursework to my advantage rather than a deficit. Suddenly, my postmodern philosophy courses made sense, and didn't just look like a lack of theology courses. 2) It appealed to the strengths of the program. 3) And though it didn't remain a huge interest for me, it was still representative of the type of thinker I am.

All of this is to say is that if I were you I would find a way (if you hadn't already) to stress how your previous coursework makes sense with what you want to do at ND. I imagine that you have a lot of questions and topics you want to explore. Narrow it down to those that best make your case. It's not a contract. So even if you are at the point where, like you said, all you know is that you want to do theology, use your personal statement to explore some more narrow subtopics (even if you know that they are just possibilities). Finally, I would find a way to take coursework, even if its just to audit courses. Getting a better feel for the discipline will allow you to articulate your interest better.

Also, take heart. You are switching disciplines (even though it sounds like you are getting some experience in your thesis) which means you are somewhat fighting against the grain. But there were plenty of people at ND who didn't have BAs in theology so it is totally possible. Remember that there are lots of people at the top who would be successful if admitted, and you could very well have been one of them. Sometimes its just a crapshoot in choosing between a number of excellent candidates.

Peace

E

[thekidisalright]

P.S. It is standard to have a Master's before applying to Phds in theology. In fact, most of the schools I applied to explicitly stated that you had to have one even to apply. (UVA's religion department is the one counter-example I can think of). In fact, I know plenty of people with two master's.

[Phenomenologist]

As for volunteer programs, I don't think it makes a difference. Grad schools aren't looking for well-roundedness in the way that colleges are. And even though its a theology program, ND also has an MDiv program, so there is an understood distinction that this program is *just* academic (I think the distinction is more fluid at other schools). The exception would be if it actually related to your research.

Great tips from eskidd.

Also eskidd, congrats on the Marquette PhD with funding! I would love to do my PhD there, and I hear funding is harder to come by there -- congrats!

[thekidisalright]

Great tips from eskidd.

Also eskidd, congrats on the Marquette PhD with funding! I would love to do my PhD there, and I hear funding is harder to come by there -- congrats!

Thanks Phenom,

I should probably change my signature though - that is old and I am currently in my first year at Marquette. Loving it so far!

Edited March 18, 2011 by eskidd

[The Man Who Is Thursday]

I wanted to thank all of you who have posted in this thread. I really appreciate your advice. I was wondering if I could ask for a bit more... >_> heh

You see, I just got a rather large curveball thrown at me. I mentioned earlier that I am trying to make the switch from studying US history to theology. However, I applied to various schools in both of the fields, just to find out what options I'd have. I did not get into any of the theology programs I applied to (which were admittedly few, and they only received hastily completed apps due to time constraints), and I did not get into any US history programs either--until today. The last history program just accepted me with full funding (I don't know why it took them so long, but it did). I only have a week to respond to their offer. I did not expect to get something like that, especially with the lukewarm treatment I got from the school up 'till now.

This school does not have a great history program (though not a bad one really), but does not have any professors that are very well known in US history (it used to, but one died and the other retired). On the other hand...it's full funding, and I didn't get in anywhere else.

I really don't know what to do with the offer. Theology is hands down my main intellectual passion, and as much as I like US history, the ratio of theology to US history books on my shelf is probably like 10:1 (to give an idea of where my interests lie). I feel like, based on what you've said earlier, that I stand a chance of getting into a good theology program in the future if I spend some time on my statement and refine the rest of it, but that is not at all guaranteed. And though the job market sucks for all humanities, I would think there'd be a lot more (comparatively) job opportunities for US history PhDs than Theology (or History of Christianity).

Would accepting this offer permanently rule out theology for me? I don't know how schools react to someone trying to switch if I tried it again later (supposing I earned a Masters' and then tried to apply elsewhere--I'm not even sure I could ever leave with this fellowship, with that much money does it work like a binding contract?). And since we all know that specificity is important, I'd think potential theology programs would wonder why the hell a history person keeps trying to get into their system, and what I could possibly offer with a background in colonial US.

Essentially, I feel I'll regret either decision. If I take the offer, I'll regret not doing theology. If I reject it, I'll regret not accepting a massive award in a field that probably has more job security. I am at a loss and don't really have much time to decide...gah.

Counsel? Advice? Suggestions?

I could definitely use it...I thank you all again for your advice so far. It's been excellent.

[JonathanEdwards]

I wanted to thank all of you who have posted in this thread. I really appreciate your advice. I was wondering if I could ask for a bit more... >_> heh

You see, I just got a rather large curveball thrown at me. I mentioned earlier that I am trying to make the switch from studying US history to theology. However, I applied to various schools in both of the fields, just to find out what options I'd have. I did not get into any of the theology programs I applied to (which were admittedly few, and they only received hastily completed apps due to time constraints), and I did not get into any US history programs either--until today. The last history program just accepted me with full funding (I don't know why it took them so long, but it did). I only have a week to respond to their offer. I did not expect to get something like that, especially with the lukewarm treatment I got from the school up 'till now.

This school does not have a great history program (though not a bad one really), but does not have any professors that are very well known in US history (it used to, but one died and the other retired). On the other hand...it's full funding, and I didn't get in anywhere else.

I really don't know what to do with the offer. Theology is hands down my main intellectual passion, and as much as I like US history, the ratio of theology to US history books on my shelf is probably like 10:1 (to give an idea of where my interests lie). I feel like, based on what you've said earlier, that I stand a chance of getting into a good theology program in the future if I spend some time on my statement and refine the rest of it, but that is not at all guaranteed. And though the job market sucks for all humanities, I would think there'd be a lot more (comparatively) job opportunities for US history PhDs than Theology (or History of Christianity).

Would accepting this offer permanently rule out theology for me? I don't know how schools react to someone trying to switch if I tried it again later (supposing I earned a Masters' and then tried to apply elsewhere--I'm not even sure I could ever leave with this fellowship, with that much money does it work like a binding contract?). And since we all know that specificity is important, I'd think potential theology programs would wonder why the hell a history person keeps trying to get into their system, and what I could possibly offer with a background in colonial US.

Essentially, I feel I'll regret either decision. If I take the offer, I'll regret not doing theology. If I reject it, I'll regret not accepting a massive award in a field that probably has more job security. I am at a loss and don't really have much time to decide...gah.

Counsel? Advice? Suggestions?

I could definitely use it...I thank you all again for your advice so far. It's been excellent.

While I suppose this could turn out to be an either/or situation, it’s also possible that there’s a major unrecognized ‘both/and’ opportunity here. There’s nothing that says you can’t take the offer and study a theological movement in U.S. History, or a major American theologian like Edwards, Hodge, and do it with full funding (and presumably medical insurance) from the history department. Check with your advisor and explain your research interests, and perhaps they’ll let you take some of your coursework in theology, or have joint/interdisciplinary supervision. If you’re not satisfied with the options presented you in your first year, you can reapply to schools of theology next year as a better candidate (although you’ll need to carefully work out your explanation as to why you’re leaving a funded program in another discipline.)

P.S. Great moniker, by the way.

[The Man Who Is Thursday]

Hi Westcott, thanks for the reply (and glad you like my name, haha).

I have actually considered what you suggested. Unfortunately, this school is not a great place to do American religious history (it would have been several years ago, but not any longer). In terms of intellectual history, the early America profs currently there focus more on political ideology than anything else, or the role of women, and expansion into the west. On top of this, being a large, public state school, there is no theology program there, so taking theology classes as well would obviously be difficult, haha.

I also had a weird experience with one of the early America profs. I spoke to one on the phone several months back who rather frightened me off from the program, since I was told (in kind but strangely ambiguous terms) that I should probably go somewhere else. I don't know what this person's motivation was in telling me that, but I put the school out of my mind as a result--which is why I'm so surprised to get an offer like this now. Naturally, I have reservations about the program because even one of their own faculty seemed pretty negative about it, so I thought my decision was made for me.

Of course, all this money on the table now is what's giving me second thoughts...that is the real issue.

[Phenomenologist]

If you don't accept the offer, you almost certainly won't get it back. If you do accept the offer, you can still apply to theology programs in one or two years, and transfer programs.

If it's your only offer on the table, accepting it might strengthen your theology apps for next year more than not accepting it, and simply trying to do other things to pump up your CV. At least this'll show you got accepted and fully funded somewhere, so you're something of a "contender."

I don't think uber-funding is a "binding contract," but you might want to look into it more. From what I've read and understand, people do indeed swap PhD programs for one reason or another (a dissertation advisor leaves a faculty, etc.). Presumably most of these candidates had funding offers for 4-5 years, despite transferring after only 1 or 2.

And absolute worst-case-scenario, if you don't take the offer, then next year when you apply to theology programs you might get shut out again and be dead in the water (in academia, at least). But if you do take this offer, then at least you'll be moving forward in a program with a potential for future work in academia.

Frankly, the most interesting theology work is all interdisciplinary anyway: historical theology, political theology, philosophical theology, etc. We need more sharp theological minds who are trained interdisciplinarily, to draw connections that theologians otherwise would miss due to a lack of training outside their field.

I struggled with a similar debate: Should I apply to philosophy PhD's, or theology PhD's? I love theology much more. But philosophy could open other job opportunities, and give great perspective on theology. And one bonus is this: If you get your PhD in theology, you won't read much U.S. history in your leisure time. But if you get your PhD in US History, you'll still read a whole lot of theology in your free time (because it's a chief interest of yours). So you'll be cultivating your interests in both, whereas with a theology PhD you won't.

But again -- you can apply to theology programs again in the next year or two (perhaps after your history program grants an MA en route to the PhD, if it does that). But if you reject the offer and get shut out again next year, you're more stuck. I would take the offer.