Georgetown MSFS vs. SAIS-M.A.

[timetomakethedonuts]

So I have been very lucky i nthe admissions process this year. I have narrowed down my decision to SFS and SAIS. Being abroad right now and having never been to D.C. before, I am very curious to hear people's thoughts on each school's strengths and weaknesses. This means academics, but also location, reputation, student life, career services, and anything else under the sun. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[schifoan]

I'd also appreciate any thoughts. I'm basically in the same situation.

Edited March 17, 2011 by schifoan

[laserjpb]

Same/similar boat here, waitlisted for SAIS, so that may be an option vs SIPA & MSFS...

[indyir]

hey so am I, really confused betweeen Hopkins and Georgetown MA in International Affairs and MS in Foreign Service. someone please help me weigh out the pros and cons. I reallly feel like am on a lucky streak its unbelievable.

[timetomakethedonuts]

can anyone from either of the school's comment?

[SaraDC]

I'm working on a pro/con document that I'll be happy to share when it's a bit more complete (SIPA will also be included). Out of curiosity, are any of you planning on attending the admitted students' day at any of the schools in April? I'm expecting to learn a lot there - even though it's going to be a crazy week.

[winterxrose]

Unless I've managed to make a decision by then, I'll be GW, Georgetown, and SAIS that week. So much for keeping up with my last semester of undergrad...

edit: thanks so much for doing that, SarahL!

Edited March 18, 2011 by winterxrose

[laserjpb]

I will likely fly in for the MSFS admitted student day thing ... I'm between there, SIPA & SAIS if I get in from the waitlist. MSFS is the only program I haven't visited although my visit to SIPA was more a self guided tour of the place as opposed to meetings with staff or students...

[timetomakethedonuts]

No, I can't go unfortunately. Working in China. If you do end up going to the open house, please post your impressions.

[Punkprince]

Similar situation here.

I 've been admitted to both SAIS and SFS and would be interested in sharing views with others here.

SarahL, I admit I am looking forward to your list

BTW, I wish I could attend an "admitted students" day, but I don't see it possible.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Punkprince

[timetomakethedonuts]

Ok, so here's my take on it right now. These are not facts but my impressions!

(subject to change) typos aplenty!

Reputation: SFS has better layman recognition, while most people outside the field associate Johns Hopkins with medical. In the field (which is obviously more important), I think the schools are relatively equal with some people thinking SAIS offers better economic training and others thinking SFS is a more well rounded program with a greater ability to shape your concentration. Obviously, this difference can change based on whether someone wants to shirk econ prep, or not at either school. I do think that some people on this board tend to talk about SAIS name recognition and placement without comparing the overall size of the programs. With 300 grads a year, SAIS will simply have more alumni.

Size: 600 or so total students for SAIS, 200 for SFS. Obviously this is a preference thing.I go back and forth on it I will say that having so many students start at Bologna at SAIS puts me off because I would imagine that they develop strong bonds with each other and are clique-y upon returning to DC. SFS offers smaller class sizes and less competition with other cohort members for same job postings due to sheer #s.

Academic Strengths: I do not know much about either school's respective strengths other than what I've heard from others. Namely Hopkins has a strong econ dept especially in dev. and that SFS is supposed to have a very strong Middle East component. I've heard the IBD Certificate is legit. Any thoughts on academic strengths would be appreciated.

Network Strengths: Georgetown seems to have a very strong network that is easy to access because of people's allegiance to the school. Hopkins also has a strong network, I don't think you can choose one school over the other unless you look at placements.

Exit Ops/ Placements: To me, this is the decider. SFS seems to have the best placement in the public sector (us and foreign gov'ts) of any school in the country. Looking back at the past 5 years of placement info, I would argue that while both schools do well in this regard, SFS wins. SAIS clearly to me offers better ops in the business sector placing more people in the top consulting firms and i-banks. But the fact that either school does better in one area over another in placement might just be a reflection of student interest rather than placement ability. SAIS seems to have stronger placement at the IMF and World Bank. I think both schools place well at the UN. In non-profits, both schools seem to be relatively equal to me.

Diversity of Student Body: I think both schools are very strong in attracting candidates with different experiences, but I think SFS has a higher % of int'l students which I think is a plus.

Location: I like that Georgetown has a whole school around it. Opportunities to meet other people with other interests, use a wide array of facilities seems like a plus. I have heard the area is very nice.

Grab-Bag: I like that Georgetown is a jesuit based institution (I'm not religious), but some people may be turned of by this. I also read about Paul Nitze and had rather mixed feelings about him.

The way I am view the decision: I think if you know you want to go into public sector SFS is the place to go. I think if you know that you want to go into private sector, SAIS is the better choice. I think both schools are great and you can't go wrong with either one, if you are not sure what you want to do after graduation.

If you're like me, there is no wrong choice, but no matter what you do, you'll regret it.

Hope this helps jump-start the conversation

Edited March 23, 2011 by timetomakethedonuts

[indyir]

Hi,

I was considering the same thing, for me SIPA is also a choice but when it comes down to SAIS and SFS, I feel that SAIS has more internationals. True SFS does have internationals but they inlude American borns in this sector. So when it comes to stuff like public sector jobs , internationals are automatically at a disadvantage.

Also, being from India , though I am interested in the Middle East , I dont what to go to a school whose policy is very Middle East dominated. That is just what i feel.

I am leaning a lot more towards SAIS right now where my concentrations would be international economics and South Asia studies rather than Georgetown where I have chosen international development.

I find the courses at SAIS more to my liking and the fact they r giving me 10 k a year is definitely in their favour.

At work now so just squeezing in time for this, but will definitely add more points soon!

[timetomakethedonuts]

Hi,

I was considering the same thing, for me SIPA is also a choice but when it comes down to SAIS and SFS, I feel that SAIS has more internationals. True SFS does have internationals but they inlude America So when it comes to stuff like public sector jobs , internationals are automatically at a disadvantage.

Also, being from India , though I am interested in the Middle East , I dont what to go to a school whose policy is very Middle East dominated. That is just what i feel.

I find the courses at SAIS more to my liking and the fact they r giving me 10 k a year is definitely in their favour.

Hey Nehagg, Thanks for your response. Here's the data from the schools' websites on diversity.

SFS:2010: Students self-reported the following information: the class averages 4.5 years of prior work experience, the average age is 26.7 (age range 20 – 41), 36% of the students are international, and 20% of U.S. students represent a U.S. minority. Students claiming dual citizenship with the U.S. and another country are counted as U.S citizens in these statistics. This year’s international students come from 26 countries. In 2009, 41% International from 24 countries.

SAIS:International Students: 34%, representing 70+ countries Total of 600 students at DC campus.

So yes SAIS does have more internationals but not by percentage. They also have more Americans!

SFS doesn't count Americans with dual citizenship as international.

My questions for you are why are internationals automatically at a disadvantage for public sector jobs? What about the SAIS courses do you like more? And can you provide any more information about SFS being Middle East dominated. I have not heard it was dominated by this, only that it was a strength. Please expound if you a moment.

[Punkprince]

My questions for you are why are internationals automatically at a disadvantage for public sector jobs? What about the SAIS courses do you like more? And can you provide any more information about SFS being Middle East dominated. I have not heard it was dominated by this, only that it was a strength. Please expound if you a moment.

My guess is NehAgg means in regards to international students finding a public sector job in the US? Seems reasonable. I love Georgetown's close knit community and the lesser emphasis on economics. Nevertheless, I do find that SAIS provides a better offset for those that want to keep the private sector door open (in case you are unsure about what you 'll end up doing).

Maybe more often the case with international students?

For me it's not exactly a dilemma, since odds are I will be getting better funding from SAIS. Of course I am still waiting to find out (from both Schools).

Now, if things turn out to be different, it will be a genuine dilemma...

I don't like how SFS appears not willing to cooperate with other Schools when it comes to dual degrees. I wish I could make them cooperate on a curriculum with SAIS,

but it does not seem possible.

I would appreciate an American's view on the faculty at both Schools (especially iDev).

Edited March 23, 2011 by Punkprince

[indyir]

Hi from my point of view and of course its just an opinion, speaking to studnets in schools in dc, the focus of georgetown is very US policy oriented, and by public sector jobs i meant working for the us government , its not exactly easy or might be impossible for a non us citizen to work for the US government. The World Bank and the UN are different, I dd not mean that.

Also the middle east focus seemed to come from the fact a majority of the international students i saw on the facebook page they made for admits seemed to be from the middle east ( very minor point) and their largest bracket of students which you can see from the employment results seem to belong to the strategic and security concentration.Dominated was the wrong word i think their focus is that area. It is just a feeling i get and somehow the curriculum at georgetown is just not convincing me enough. I laos received an email today that i did not get scholarship, so the decision becomes just that much simpler.

[indyir]

Also i like that SAIS has a South Asia concentration which is very valid for me and their strong focus on International Economics ,They have the right balance of international economics and international development specific to my region of interest.

[timetomakethedonuts]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

I also did not get a scholarship. They say only 20% do.

I see what you're saying about Middle East focus, although right now in America, that does seem to preoccupy much of our thoughts and resources, so it makes some sense to me.

I wish the schools offered more information about their academic strengths on their websites without digging being required. I will ask tomorrow in the chat. I am also curious about the foreign language exams.

Edited March 23, 2011 by timetomakethedonuts

[Punkprince]

Same here, no scholarship. This does make things easier.

[SaraDC]

Okay - I've given up on a separate document. Why? It's just too personal to be of relevance to everyone else. I'm going to share my thoughts, and respond to some of the other points made in this thread (and a few others) - but I think it's important to remember that this really is a personal decision that depends a lot on career goals and personality. Also GreenDiplomat made a great comment in the about drawing false dichotomies between programs- I think the same definitely applies to SAIS/SFS as well.

I'm planning to attend the accepted students day at both SFS and SAIS - maybe SIPA but I'm not sure yet (need to decide for sure by Friday). I hope to have a lot more insight into the SFS program in the next week or so after I meet with a few alumni. After the admitted students day, and my conversations, I'll be happy to share any new insights or changed impressions. But in the meantime, a few thoughts:

timetomakethedonuts,I thought a lot of the points you made were helpful, particularly with regards to class size. In my mind, a larger class size often means more diversity, the ability to network with students that have a larger variety of backgrounds, and a much larger post-graduation network. In my mind, this is something that SAIS and SIPA have going for them, even though if you go too far in the size direction your class might start to feel impersonal.

I went to a high school that graduated about 95 people in a class - about the same size as a class in the SFS program. To be honest, I can't decide if that's a plus (nice intimate setting), or a huge negative. In particular, that's something I'm hoping to talk to the alumni about (and get a better sense of at the open house days). For the most part, I don't think that a smaller class size means less competition for jobs because students from SAIS/SIPA/SFS/etc will all be applying, so you'll have to compete regardless. If there was a situation in which an employer was posting a job at only one of the schools, that employer would likely be doing so because he/she has a direct connection with that school - something that I imagine is less likely to happen with a program that only graduates 95 people a year. Still, I believe SFS grads can draw on the undergraduate network as well, so maybe that effect is minimized.

timetomakedonuts, I think you're right about the academic strengths. If you want to study the Middle East, go to SFS - their professors have been all over the quality coverage of the popular uprisings of late. [i'm editing to add that I don't think the school's strength in the ME is a reason not to go there if you're not interested in it, I doubt it's something that's impossible to avoid]. Radio silence from SAIS -- in fact I get the impression that the school is particularly weak in this field (but that's just my opinion). SIPA has Rashid Khalidi (and his wife!) - that alone is almost reason enough to visit. I've heard good things about the Latin American studies program at SAIS and I agree that their econ department is strong.

okay... this has gotten too long already so I'll mention a few more points in a separate post.

Edited March 23, 2011 by SarahL

[SaraDC]

..and their largest bracket of students which you can see from the employment results...

Would you mind linking to the employment results? I can't find them!

I'veworked at Treasury for 3 years and I've never met a SFS grad. I've met a few from SIPA and American, but SAIS has the monopoly - hands down. I'm not sure if anyone out there is going to graduate school with the explicit goal of working at Treasury - but if so, that person would be well advised to go to SAIS. I'm still trying to get a handle on where SFS is placing their grads (an employment report would definitely help with this) - but based on a non-scientific linkedin search - it doesn't look too different from SAIS.

SAIS definitely places a substantial number students at the IMF/WB - but I'm willing to bet that 99% of those are non-Americans. It's very difficult for Americans to get in at either institution on a non-contracting basis, regardless of the school they went to. I'm not sure if an international student looking to work at the WB/IMF would have an advantage if he/she went to SAIS instead of SFS.

Edited March 23, 2011 by SarahL

[SaraDC]

Another note on location for those not familiar with DC.

Georgetown has a nice campus (with a traditional college feel) and as an SFS student you'll (presumably) be able to take advantage of the entire university. However, the Georgetown area (also includes some shopping, and residences) isn't metro accessible. The traffic and parking situation tends to be pretty bad, but you can always bike or ride a bus. I don't think this would have too much of an impact for someone going to/from school on a daily basis, but if you wanted to hold down an internship during the school year - it might be slightly harder to plan logistics if you had to go back and forth from the Georgetown area.

SAIS on the other hand is in the Dupont area - very accessible by foot/bike/metro/bus/whatever, and likely very close to most potential employers in DC. If you wanted to get an internship during the school year, it wouldn't be hard to go from job to class in a relatively short amount of time. On the downside, their campus is pretty much non-existent. It consists of several buildings on Massachusetts Avenue just SE of Dupont Circle. The JHU business school shares at least one of those buildings - I think. So the SAIS location is great (I live close by), but the school simply doesn't offer the same options that Georgetown does in terms of campus life.

[indyir]

hey sure!

heres a link i found !

n thanks for the comments were very helpful !

http://msfs.georgetown.edu/documents/MSFS%20class%20of%202010%20employment%20outcomes.pdf

[D-Lux]

I'm still trying to get a handle on where SFS is placing their grads (an employment report would definitely help with this) - but based on a non-scientific linkedin search - it doesn't look too different from SAIS.

According to their website, GT produces more members in the US Foreign Service than the next three universities combined. Not sure how their domestic placement stats compare to SAIS, but you can see the stats for the last eight graduating classes here.

Edited March 23, 2011 by D-Lux

[SaraDC]

According to their website, GT produces more members in the US Foreign Service than the next three universities combined.

Yeah - I remember seeing this and thinking "Is that a good thing?", I'm still not convinced that it is.

The statistics for a typical graduating class between 2000 and 2004 are really interesting. It would be nice to know what (if anything) has changed for the classes of 2006-2010.

[D-Lux]

Yeah - I remember seeing this and thinking "Is that a good thing?", I'm still not convinced that it is.

If it happens to be your career goal (which it is for me), then yes, I'd say so.

If you're more domestically focused, it's possible that SAIS might be the better choice. Each one can take you in either direction, though, so it's really up to you.