Political Science PhD without a Political Science undergrad?

[Mohawkmonk87]

Hello all, my primary interests are International Relations, Political Economy and Development, and Religion and Politics. I will be limited to the NYC Area (Only programs I could find were extremely competitive like Columbia and NYU, anyone know of others? Public Policy schools where I could pursue these interests would be fine as well).

My primary concern is not having a substantial Political Science background. Can this be overcome by a solid academic performance in other fields? I have heard that PhD level Political Science work is actually highly Quantitative, could such a background be more preferable than a Political Science undergrad?

Anyways at my time of application this is what I will have:

SUNY at Buffalo - B.A. Philosophy and Mathematics, 3.74/4.0, Magna Cum Laude, Phi Beta Kappa, Philosophy Thesis in Ethics, 6 credits of Poli Sci, 18 of Economics

American University - Law & Justice Summer Program with Research Project, 4.0/4.0

Yale Divinity School - M.A.R Theology (GPA uncalculated)

SUNY at Buffalo - M.S. International Economics (Will be in progress at time of application, GPA will most likely be above a 3.7)

Work Experience: D.C. Superior Court (Internship), U.S. Census Bureau (Enumerator), No full time employment to be spoken of as I've had no gaps in my education.

Extra-Curriculars (Undergraduate): Mock Trial, College Republicans, Ethics Bowl

GRE: I took it few years back but would need to retest, Im pretty sure I can 750+ the Quant section, the other ones I am less sure about.

What should I look to improve before I apply (I still have the entire Econ program ahead of me) should I attempt to get published, or obtain teaching experience? Would it be more valuable for me to take extra Political Science classes?

Thanks in Advance!

-Mohawkmonk87

Edited April 2, 2011 by Mohawkmonk87

[maicondouglas]

Hello all, my primary interests are International Relations, Political Economy and Development, and Religion and Politics. I will be limited to the NYC Area (Only programs I could find were extremely competitive like Columbia and NYU, anyone know of others? Public Policy schools where I could pursue these interests would be fine as well).

My primary concern is not having a substantial Political Science background. Can this be overcome by a solid academic performance in other fields? I have heard that PhD level Political Science work is actually highly Quantitative, could such a background be more preferable than a Political Science undergrad?

Anyways at my time of application this is what I will have:

SUNY at Buffalo - B.A. Philosophy and Mathematics, 3.74/4.0, Magna Cum Laude, Phi Beta Kappa, Philosophy Thesis in Ethics, 6 credits of Poli Sci, 18 of Economics

American University - Law & Justice Summer Program with Research Project, 4.0/4.0

Yale Divinity School - M.A.R Theology (GPA uncalculated)

SUNY at Buffalo - M.S. International Economics (Will be in progress at time of application, GPA will most likely be above a 3.7)

Work Experience: D.C. Superior Court (Internship), U.S. Census Bureau (Enumerator), No full time employment to be spoken of as I've had no gaps in my education.

Extra-Curriculars (Undergraduate): Mock Trial, College Republicans, Ethics Bowl

GRE: I took it few years back but would need to retest, Im pretty sure I can 750+ the Quant section, the other ones I am less sure about.

What should I look to improve before I apply (I still have the entire Econ program ahead of me) should I attempt to get published, or obtain teaching experience? Would it be more valuable for me to take extra Political Science classes?

Thanks in Advance!

-Mohawkmonk87

I've never taken a poli sci class, and I got into some decent programs. I know this is true of others in the field, and they've made fine careers for themselves despite a deficit of political science coursework at the undergrad level.

I would stay away from listing that you're involved in College Republicans because most schools have a left leaning bias.

[hupr]

I got 5 offers this season, and I've never taken a political science class before, so if you understand what the current discussions are in the subfield or about the issue you'd like to research and can put together a coherent narrative about what you'd like to work on and how your past academic/professional path has led you there, I think you'll be fine.

[firefly28]

I agree with the folks who've already replied. If you check faculty listings at some universities, you'll find that some professors have undergrad degrees in math, or economics, or psychology. I actually know of one doctoral student whose undergrad is in theater(!). A math background gives you a nice head start on the quantitative end of research, and I'd STRONGLY suggest applying to quantitative-heavy departments. And yes, leaving out the CR part--depending on who reads your file, they could junk it just due to that.

So the question to ask really is "given my interest in (x), where should I apply?"

I'm guessing you're one of those IPE people.

Edited April 2, 2011 by firefly28

[wannabee]

Yeah I can say that I took one political science class undergrad and I majored in Middle Eastern studies. I want to study comparative politics with a focus on the Middle East so my Arabic language knowledge, study experiences in the region, and knowledge of the region all helped me. I will be going to Yale to get my PhD in the fall. I think that these programs want people from different backgrounds as long as there is some connection between what you studied undergrad and what you want to study in graduate school. Hope this helps and good luck even if you are a Republican

[wtncffts]

I doubt that stating you were in the College Republicans would have an effect on your prospects. Even so, I see no point to listing it as an item on your CV or elsewhere. It has as much to do with your academic profile as being on, say, the College Table Tennis Enthusiasts Association, i.e., none. For grad admissions, in general, nobody cares about your extracurriculars or even your work experience which is not relevant to some form of academia. At least that's my perception.

[Mohawkmonk87]

Ok things I've seen so far...

Listing the CR's seems to be anathema. No problem, the reason I was feeling that out on the boards was more because of the general question of whether extracurriculars should be mentioned at all. My primary grad-app experience was for the YDS MAR program. Which if anything was more concerned with activities than grades do to their social-justice/diversity emphasis. I've heard PhDs are much a different beast, grades/GREs over extras, pointed research statement over an overly-personal statement, etc.

On the issue of quantitative programs, are there any in NYC, my list has expanded to Columbia/NYU-Poli Sci/NYU-Wagner/New School/CUNY Graduate Center, I cant FIND anymore PhD granting institutions in the City (which suprises me given that NYC is basically America's second capital, and home to the UN). Any big ones I've missed, do any of these fall into that "quantitative" camp?

I have two years to do any of the following: Learn languages, get published, take poli-sci classes, *open to other ideas* which of these is most vital to being a competitive applicant?

Thanks for the replies thus far!

[Mohawkmonk87]

Yeah I can say that I took one political science class undergrad and I majored in Middle Eastern studies. I want to study comparative politics with a focus on the Middle East so my Arabic language knowledge, study experiences in the region, and knowledge of the region all helped me. I will be going to Yale to get my PhD in the fall. I think that these programs want people from different backgrounds as long as there is some connection between what you studied undergrad and what you want to study in graduate school. Hope this helps and good luck even if you are a Republican

I found myself right on the borderline between Comparitive Theology Proper and Islamic Studies. I was actually selected to be part of Yale's first exchange group with Al-Azhar in Cairo (you can imagine how that ended up given the situation "over there"... we made it there but we didnt last long before the university pulled the plug!). But Anyways two recommendations for you as someone who has spent the last two years of my life here...

I dont know what Poli Sci's rules are for classes outside the department, but take some courses with Gerhard Bowering. He is a brilliant, dual-trained Jesuit Priest and Islamic Studies scholar who studies Islam largly along historical-critical lines and teaches in the Religious Studies Department. He treats early Islam primarily but I found that this is truly VITAL to understanding the Middle East today.

Also, the Al-Azhar program will most likely be attempted again next year, its through YDS but downtown PhDs can get in on it, an Al-Azhar affiliation would add outstanding credentials for any western scholar specializing in the Middle East region.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Mohawkmonk87

[alphazeta]

I'm a little unclear on what your goals are. Am I correct in assuming you want to get a PhD in political science and then teach? Or are you interested in some sort of policy path? Your background certainly makes a PhD possible - and many people don't have much poli sci before grad school - but it will be important to show that you know what political science is all about and are actually interested in it as a part of your application.

I notice that you're apparently in Buffalo right now (or will be?), so I have to ask: why are you limiting yourself to NYC? Even just broadening the next to include a 150 mile radius or so scoops in a lot more schools. As for what you do with the next two years, if you're confident as of this minute that you want to go on to a polisci PhD, then you should take whatever political science classes you can. If you're not interested in taking those classes, then you need to rethink your plan (if they're not available, that's another issue).

As for political science PhD programs in New York, I believe you have identified everything within the city itself. Depending on your GRE (and obviously other factors), you have the potential to be competitive at Columbia and NYU, which are both excellent programs. Honestly, I have to advise against the New School if you're interested in an academic career. CUNY is a possibility, but has a checkered reputation.

If you're willing to be a little further away, Princeton, SUNY-Stony Brook, and Rutgers are all promising possibilities.

[Mohawkmonk87]

I'm a little unclear on what your goals are. Am I correct in assuming you want to get a PhD in political science and then teach? Or are you interested in some sort of policy path? Your background certainly makes a PhD possible - and many people don't have much poli sci before grad school - but it will be important to show that you know what political science is all about and are actually interested in it as a part of your application.

I notice that you're apparently in Buffalo right now (or will be?), so I have to ask: why are you limiting yourself to NYC? Even just broadening the next to include a 150 mile radius or so scoops in a lot more schools. As for what you do with the next two years, if you're confident as of this minute that you want to go on to a polisci PhD, then you should take whatever political science classes you can. If you're not interested in taking those classes, then you need to rethink your plan (if they're not available, that's another issue).

As for political science PhD programs in New York, I believe you have identified everything within the city itself. Depending on your GRE (and obviously other factors), you have the potential to be competitive at Columbia and NYU, which are both excellent programs. Honestly, I have to advise against the New School if you're interested in an academic career. CUNY is a possibility, but has a checkered reputation.

If you're willing to be a little further away, Princeton, SUNY-Stony Brook, and Rutgers are all promising possibilities.

I am not against the possibility of teaching, however I am definately more interested in policy jobs / public service jobs (Think tanks, Govt orgs - State dept, NSA/Homeland, etc.), I was flirting with military service for a while but the order would be completely backwards to get a PhD then serve (rather than the other way around).

I am limiting myself to NYC because as I finish up in Buffalo, my girlfriend will be completing her first degree there as well. She does Theater though, NYC is the place for that, so we agreed that is where we would go if we both got an admit in the City.

I will probably spread my 1.5 year econ degree out to 2 so I can take Poli Sci classes as well. It will probably give me clarity on a research topic as well.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Mohawkmonk87

[hupr]

I am not against the possibility of teaching, however I am definately more interested in policy jobs / public service jobs (Think tanks, Govt orgs - State dept, NSA/Homeland, etc.)

You probably shouldn't do a PhD then. For all of the things you're listing, an MA would be what you need to do. A doctoral program is professional training for academic work, so if you're not really interested in that, it would be a waste of your time and effort. Apply to SIPA or one of the other policy MAs instead.

[wannabee]

You probably shouldn't do a PhD then. For all of the things you're listing, an MA would be what you need to do. A doctoral program is professional training for academic work, so if you're not really interested in that, it would be a waste of your time and effort. Apply to SIPA or one of the other policy MAs instead.

See this is what really bugs me. It seems like there is this total and complete separation between anything academic and anything policy oriented. I know that the PhD path trains you to be an academic. But the problem really is how can you do academic work in a way that applies to contemporary problems and teach as well. I think that the gap between academia and policy does not need to be as wide as it sometimes appears to be. I don't know if this is realistic or not but I have been thinking about it a lot. Is there a role for a public academic in a field like political science? I am not really talking about this specific instance, but wondering in general.

Edited April 3, 2011 by wannabee

[alphazeta]

I am not against the possibility of teaching, however I am definately more interested in policy jobs / public service jobs (Think tanks, Govt orgs - State dept, NSA/Homeland, etc.), I was flirting with military service for a while but the order would be completely backwards to get a PhD then serve (rather than the other way around).

I am limiting myself to NYC because as I finish up in Buffalo, my girlfriend will be completing her first degree there as well. She does Theater though, NYC is the place for that, so we agreed that is where we would go if we both got an admit in the City.

I will probably spread my 1.5 year econ degree out to 2 so I can take Poli Sci classes as well. It will probably give me clarity on a research topic as well.

If your interest is in policy and public service, then once you finish your current masters degree I think you would be in a good position to spring right into something. Particularly for international development, a masters in international development should be a more than adequate background. I'd really suggest that you look for internships in between the years of your program and then try to find something with the UN or an NGO in NYC rather than jumping into what would be a third graduate degree. Once you're in a job, you can decide if a PhD in Poli Sci is really going to advance your objectives. Also, many employers will help you pay for part-time coursework, and something like a public policy degree from SIPA would probably be a good fit for you.

[hupr]

See this is what really bugs me. It seems like there is this total and complete separation between anything academic and anything policy oriented. I know that the PhD path trains you to be an academic. But the problem really is how can you do academic work in a way that applies to contemporary problems and teach as well. I think that the gap between academia and policy does not need to be as wide as it sometimes appears to be. I don't know if this is realistic or not but I have been thinking about it a lot. Is there a role for a public academic in a field like political science? I am not really talking about this specific instance, but wondering in general.

The way I look at it is that it's just not the correct training. Doctoral training is very specific and not necessary for most jobs outside of academia. You wouldn't need an MD to be a nurse or work for an insurance company. Likewise, you don't need a PhD to do most UN work. For instance, I worked for several years at a UN agency, so it wouldn't really make sense for me to spend 5-7 years on a PhD just to come back to the same sector with new skills that don't really help me do my job there.

I'd also like to see more connect between academia and policy, but the fact of the matter is that as a profession, journalism probably has a lot more influence on policy today than political science does. In the public conversation about politics in the middle east today, for instance, you'll notice that with a few exceptions, most of the people involved are not PhDs, much less political science PhDs. The discipline's flagship journal isn't even open to the public, and even if it were, the majority of the literature isn't really accessible even when the topics it's ostensibly covering are relevant to the public conversation.

[Zahar Berkut]

The PhD in political science is often strictly viewed as training to become a professor. If you have good reasons for wanting to do a PhD to make yourself better able to enter the public policy or consulting realm, then a PhD in public policy or economics is still a possibility. The Kennedy School and the Fletcher School definitely offer PhD's, though I'm honestly not sure what their grad's do with them. So look into SIPA to see if they have their own policy-oriented PhD program if you must stay in the NYC area. But really, your MS in International Economics does qualify you to go into the line of work you seem to be interested in, and the theology background should make you a particularly interesting job candidate.

So, I guess what we're trying to fish out is what your reasons are for wanting further education.

[cairalyrics]

The way I look at it is that it's just not the correct training. Doctoral training is very specific and not necessary for most jobs outside of academia. You wouldn't need an MD to be a nurse or work for an insurance company. Likewise, you don't need a PhD to do most UN work. For instance, I worked for several years at a UN agency, so it wouldn't really make sense for me to spend 5-7 years on a PhD just to come back to the same sector with new skills that don't really help me do my job there.

I'd also like to see more connect between academia and policy, but the fact of the matter is that as a profession, journalism probably has a lot more influence on policy today than political science does. In the public conversation about politics in the middle east today, for instance, you'll notice that with a few exceptions, most of the people involved are not PhDs, much less political science PhDs. The discipline's flagship journal isn't even open to the public, and even if it were, the majority of the literature isn't really accessible even when the topics it's ostensibly covering are relevant to the public conversation.

I usually don't weigh in on these issues; however, I have seen/heard this statement for several years and it has not been true to my experience. While it is completely true that PhD training is totally unnecessary for private sector, not for profit/non for profit, or policy related careers, more and more there is a glass ceiling for those without PhDs. I have an MA from Columbia in Quantitative Methods and work at a policy oriented research center and CANNOT be promoted above my current level. I realize that my current job has slightly more stringent rules than other organizations, other students from my MA program have had the same experience in general. Even if you can get promoted, you are often looked down upon by the PhDs in your workplace (of whom there are more and more every year). Furthermore, while some places will promote you after 5+ years (time it takes to get a PhD I realize), you will most likely never be reach the upper echelon with the current trend towards degree inflation. More and more almost everyone gets MA/MS degrees. If you want to be respected within a policy center, you need a PhD. I realize this may sound excessively negative, but it is the truth. I know, I don't plan on being the VP of a Non-Profit Policy Center, but I just think you have to aim high to reach some where in the middle. I just wanted to add my experience to this discussion as it does get incredibly frustrating to constantly face a glass ceiling.

Edited April 4, 2011 by cairalyrics

[Goosefoot]

You probably shouldn't do a PhD then. For all of the things you're listing, an MA would be what you need to do. A doctoral program is professional training for academic work, so if you're not really interested in that, it would be a waste of your time and effort. Apply to SIPA or one of the other policy MAs instead.

I disagree. PhDs can teach at a policy school, which many with those interests do while doing consulting, working with thinktanks, etc (esp. in DC). Good quant PhDs give you loads of useful skills (applied stats not formal) which you can take straight to the NGO/private sector, especially if you end up ABD (you never know). But I agree, you are doing yourself a disservice to limit your search to NYC. Commute, learn to live apart for a while, but don't be so narrow. And, I hate to say it, this is your girlfriend, not your wife. You would hate to be in the middle of a grueling PhD program wishing you were elsewhere if she someday dumps you.