Applications: ups and downs

[ReallyNiceGuy]

I apologize to everyone for double posting. I didn't realize there was a History Forum. That is outstanding and there has been some great advice in this forum. I hope my post will receive the same. Thank you!

I went back to school at the age of 30. I had only intended to finish a BA in history to achieve a personal goal and because no one in my family has ever finished. I went to the cheapest school in my area (it is accredited) because I finance my education myself. I entered my current university with the 2.4GPA I "earned" at the age of 18 when I didn't take college seriously.

Fast forward 3 years and I'm set to graduate in spring 2012. Professors encouraged me to go further than a BA. I listened and I've worked really hard. Here is what I will present in applications:

1) 4.0 in the last 2+years; I estimate the cumulative from both institutious will be something like 3.67 (3.9 in major).

2) I have presented 3 papers at national academic conferences across the country

3) I am a writing tutor at my University and a Writing Assistant for a Professor (essentially an undergraduate TA)

4) The school gave me an "oustanding history student of the year" award.

5) I am a member of 2 honors societies

6) I started two on campus organizations

7) I have an EXCELLENT chance to be published by October

8) I can easily get letters of rec from as many as 7 Professors; 2 of these openly told the entire student body I'm the best student the program has ever seen

However, I am a natural "I can do more" type of person and I have the following deficiencies:

1) My language skills in the region I would like to study are weak. I'm working on it, but I am where I am at the moment.

2) I did not go to the best undergraduate institution. I am the definition of working class, as is my school.

3) I've been studying really hard on the GRE, but my scores continue to hover around 1100 (550/550). I take it in about one month and realistically, I do not feel I can get +150 between now and then.

I want to apply as a MA student to hone my language skills. The institutions I want to attend most are top 20. Am I aiming too high? How much will I be "punished" for having not attended a premier undergraduate program?

I know, I know: TL;DR

Anyone who has a chance to offer any words, be they encouraging or "realistic" is greatly appreciated.

ReallyNiceGuy

[natsteel]

RNG, you and I are somewhat similar. I'm straight-up working class and went to a large, not-highly regarded, public university at 28. I just graduated this past week with a record similar to yours (3.9 GPA, no conferences but a pub in a "national" undergraduate journal).

I also had similar concerns as I was preparing for the process. But let me tell you from personal experience... Where you do your undergrad does not really matter as I got into my top choice (a top 3 Ivy).

550 on the GRE Q is more than fine (560 is the average score for Humanities students). For top programs, you'd give yourself a better shot if you could pump that Verbal score up by at least 50 points. I tend to think that if your score is at least over 600 that it becomes a nothing factor.

I don't know deficient your languages are, but, if I were you, I would apply to PhD programs, along with a few funded MAs (if possible).

[qbtacoma]

Seconded to Natsteel's advice on applying to a variety of programs, not just terminal MAs. As far as the language goes, do acknowledge in your SOP that it is an area you will work on by doing x, y, and z actions. Take summer classes at your local community college, do intensive self-study, hire a tutor, whatever. Spin it into a positive by saying "see, I'm proactive about this, you won't even know it was a problem when I arrive." So don't feel too limited by your language ability. If it really is a problem like you need to learn Khmer and French and Chinese by the fall, then you might just want to take a year and study language, but barring that, you are probably fine.

[TMP]

Professors encouraged me to go further than a BA. I listened and I've worked really hard. Here is what I will present in applications:

Be optimistically cautious about professors' encouragement. A lot of professors will encourage their top students to go on for PhD because they see potential. That is fine because they themselves know what it takes to get a PhD. However, keep it realistic. Their perspective is skewed to your current university and they won't necessarily know what is the competition you'll face (especially if they don't have their own doctoral program). If they say "You'll get in everywhere, even Harvard!" Don't take it too personally but just a compliment that you're a great candidate. In other words, take their words with a grain of salt but keep cautious optimism.

6) I started two on campus organizations

They aren't going to care about this. Everything else you said is what they'll notice.

1) My language skills in the region I would like to study are weak. I'm working on it, but I am where I am at the moment.

What languages are you talking about, specifically? If you can, incorporate them in your senior thesis.

Don't sweat the GRE too much. I have awful scores as well but nobody has complained about them. If the rest of your application is very good (flawless writing sample, clear SOP, glowing LORs, good grades, some professional activities), the GRE won't matter so much. They matter for additional fellowships but those are tough to get anyway.

Now, I'd like to go back to the first thing. If your professors are encouraging you to go for the PhD, it's not clear whether or not you have thought about it before approaching them, or if they approached you and said "Get a PhD." Either way, why?

[ReallyNiceGuy]

Now, I'd like to go back to the first thing. If your professors are encouraging you to go for the PhD, it's not clear whether or not you have thought about it before approaching them, or if they approached you and said "Get a PhD." Either way, why?

I never really thought about doing it until the 2nd semester of my Jr year. I heard a Prof giving another student instruction on what he needs to do for getting his application together and I thought "I can do that." After I decided I wanted to do it, I worked hard to improve every aspect of my application.

I appreciate the information very much. I am somewhat surprised that a school wouldn't care at all about clubs! Do you think that is universal? The MA program I would most like to attend definitely suggested they would care about that!

Thank you again.

[natsteel]

I am somewhat surprised that a school wouldn't care at all about clubs! Do you think that is universal? The MA program I would most like to attend definitely suggested they would care about that!

Thank you again.

ticklemepink is right (as usual). Adcomms generally don't care about extra-curricular activities in the way that they do for undergraduates. If they were history-related, you might mention them on your CV, but, even then, they won't be worth much in terms of admission at most schools.

tmp is also right about the GRE. I sweated over it both before and after I took the test, but I think the GRE is a way to whittle down the applications. Yet, even at very good schools, the cut-off is likely a relatively low score. As long as you don't completely bomb it, it won't matter. This is just my perception but I don't think adcomms take the difference between 700 and 800 very seriously. However, the difference between 500 and 600 a little more so.

Edited June 12, 2011 by natsteel

[ReallyNiceGuy]

Now, I'd like to go back to the first thing. If your professors are encouraging you to go for the PhD, it's not clear whether or not you have thought about it before approaching them, or if they approached you and said "Get a PhD." Either way, why?

Bluntly, it's an issue of confidence. I am not a naturally brilliant person. I'm a butcher by trade and what separates me from other people is that my work ethic is as strong as they come.

I considered getting a MA because I wanted to teach, but I didn't want to deal with high school kids (sorry if that's rude). The Profs I talked to asked "why not a PhD?" I mentioned that I essentially thought it was beyond me. I don't think that anymore. As far as general interest in the field, that is purely anecdotal but it is a lifelong fascination (of course I will not discuss that in my SoP).

I realize it's possible that your question was rhetorical in nature, but in the event it was not...there's the answer!

Thanks a lot for the advice. Already I have received a lot of help via this board.

Another question for you while I have your ear: I am relatively confident that if I do not receive any good offers, it will be due to my language deficiencies. Several people told me that if this is the case then it might be best for me to take a year to focus on language study. That seems like sound advice, but my job is at the university. Would it be wise to delay graduation for a year (I could do that), get a 2nd minor (in order that I might keep my job; the 2nd minor would be in English- no offense to any English majors on here, but I'm confident I could sleep in class and still get As in those classes), focus on language and then reapply for fall 2013? My issue there is that man...I'm not getting any younger and there's a certain element of s*** or get off the pot, right?

Thanks!

Edited June 13, 2011 by ReallyNiceGuy

[TMP]

ReallyNiceGuy, I faced the same dilemma too. For my specific field, I would need to know 3 languages! 2 out of 3 would be acceptable for admissions. The best advice that I receive was, "If you aren't going to go to graduate school right away, use the time to beef up your languages." I went straight to my MA program with 1 language (out of 3) and picked up the 2nd language while there. Then when I saw that I had to leave academia after my MA, I decided to use the time to pick up the 3rd language. So now I have 3 working languages, which is impressive by any standard. Not a guaranteed ticket to admissions but it can take attention away from less-than-impressive GPA or GRE.

I just kept applying and used my "free" time to work on my languages. As long you make progress with languages, you can decide for yourself when you want to apply. You'll want to discuss this with potential advisers. Some may suggest that you should take another year on that language, others may deem your preparation acceptable. It depends what you really want. But you want to have the best preparation possible to have the best shot. You also want to check in programs to make sure that they have excellent resources in helping you with langauges (like FLAS and area studies centers). If you're interested in a program without or little such resource, it's in your best interest to do much of the legwork yourself before you apply because nobody is going to help you there.

I don't know what kind of job you have at your university but I should hope that you're not looking to go into further debt just to delay your graduation and be able to take languages. Can't you keep your job after your graduation and use staff benefits to sit in language classes?

[ReallyNiceGuy]

Unfortunately, I cannot keep the job if I graduate. But the job pays me enough that I can pay for classes and not take out loans. That would allow me to keep taking language classes (as I said, the U is not outstanding. Therefore, the classes are pretty cheap).

I've been thinking about applying for MA in Russian Studies programs. I've found a couple that are funded. If there's one thing I am thankful to this board for teaching me it's that it is not worth it to take out loans to get a MA in the humanities. Thank you for that! I hope that a MA in Russian Studies (assuming I performed well) would help me become a better PhD applicant? What would look better? A MA in Russian Studies or a MA in history from an institution that does not have a single Russianist but multiple 20th century Americanists?

Also, is it widely accepted that if you are given a fully funded straight to PhD offer that you take it? What if the fit is "really good" but not quite "perfect?" And what if that program is not necessarily world renowned?

Finally, ticklemepink what is your story? Do you feel taking the MA has been worth it? Also you mention compensating for a poor GPA and GRE, is that commentary based on personal experience?

Again, thank you.