A minuses: good or bad?

[cliopatra]

What are your opinions on getting an A- in History grad programs?

I've been hearing different things. Some profs tell us that an A- is great, and others that an A- means you're doing okay but really should be getting As. An A isn't really given out in our dept unless work is top-notch (which I agree with). So it's really hard to earn an A. I hear from people in other programs in various departments that As are expected and usually given. Seems there are large discrepancies.

B + is a warning sign. So what's the deal with A-?

Reason I ask is because I'm going to apply to PhD programs (Canada) and have finished the M.A. with four A minuses and five As. Is this good? I don't know what my classmates are getting we've maintained a friendly policy of just not sharing grades with each other.

Thanks.

[Sigaba]

clio11--

It depends. What type of project did you complete to earn your master's? Did your marks improve over time? Does your current department have a reputation for holding the line on grades?

As you cannot change the grades you've received, I suggest that you focus on what you can control: your statement of purpose, your writing sample, your relationships with those writing letters of recommendation on your behalf, and your selection of doctoral programs to which you're applying.

My $0.02

[crazedandinfused]

Now I'm depressed. I've only taken one graduate history class and I got a B+.... I'm taking another one this semester but my grade won't be posted when I send out my transcripts. Gotta work on my writing sample.

[dimanche0829]

My school doesn't even offer A- as a grade (or any minus grade for that matter). If you aren't doing work worthy of an A, even if you've done better than B+ work, most professors will downgrade the student to a B+ unless the student is borderline.

I agree with Sigaba, though. You can't do anything at this point to change what you've received, but you can help influence the adcomms' ways of thinking about your grades. Knock their socks off with a killer SOP and writing sample and prove to them that you really are capable of awesome work.

[cliopatra]

clio11--

It depends. What type of project did you complete to earn your master's? Did your marks improve over time? Does your current department have a reputation for holding the line on grades?

As you cannot change the grades you've received, I suggest that you focus on what you can control: your statement of purpose, your writing sample, your relationships with those writing letters of recommendation on your behalf, and your selection of doctoral programs to which you're applying.

My $0.02

Thanks for replying.

It's a two year program. No thesis, internship (no grade just satisfactory), heavy coursework, and a 40 page research essay (which is a course on its own and is like a mini-thesis). In all, I had 9 courses the research essay included as one. The 10th "credit" is my internship.

The program I'm in is very competitive it's only offered as an MA, but the department admits only 6-9 students per year. I think something around 50-60 usually apply. It's hard to get in but our department is not known as being tough on grades. I think we're normal. It was a lot harder to earn an A compared to my UG department, but then again this is grad school and it's a totally different ball game.

I think you and dimanche are right, basically have to focus on what I can control. Can't change these grades and I think I meet almost all (or sometimes am above) the requirements for PhD programs I will be applying to. I am very self-critical (as most grad students are) and those little minuses remind me that I could have done a little bit better!

I find it very strange how some departments offer number grades whereas others letters. I'm sure this hurts some students who are applying and have to have their grades converted over to another system. It looks nice seeing all those As on the transcript but when you calculate that into a 4.0 scale it amounts to 3.7 or 3.8 I believe.

[StrangeLight]

how is a 40-page research paper not a thesis?</p>

it varies by program, but in general, A-s are fine grades for masters students but not for PhD students. at the PhD level, an A- becomes the equivalent of what a B+ is: a warning that you need to do better. anything below a B+ is an indication that you're struggling with the material.

you need to do more than just &quot;get it&quot; to get an A in a course or on an assignment. you need to bring the material together in an interesting way, say something somewhat new or original, go above and beyond whatever the assignment is asking of you. the reason so many people get As in grad school is because you're surrounded by really smart hardworking people, not because it's all suddenly easier. i've definitely seen people get Cs in grad school because they produced C-level work.

Edited September 10, 2011 by StrangeLight

[cliopatra]

how is a 40-page research paper not a thesis?

From my understanding in most Canadian departments a a thesis is a larger paper usually over 100 pages, comprised of chapters and entails a much broader scope. There is a defense following presentation of the thesis to the department. A research essay is not a thesis. It is a paper usually in the 35-60 page range meant to be published as an article once the MA is complete. Some MA programs have essay streams (usually 1yr) and thesis streams (2yrs). Writing a research essay involves more coursework in most programs.

the reason so many people get As in grad school is because you're surrounded by really smart hardworking people, not because it's all suddenly easier."

I think this depends on the department. I've also seen mediocre or average students get As or do really well because grades are inflated in grad programs. Just because they're in grad school doesn't mean most of them are hardworking and really smart. Now I don't see their written assignments but I hear them in class. Most people who brag about their grades usually are doing the worst. So I guess this goes back to my original question: how do you know if your grades are fair? How do you find out where you rank in comparison with your colleagues?

you need to bring the material together in an interesting way, say something somewhat new or original, go above and beyond whatever the assignment is asking of you.]

Yes and I think this is how it should be. I'm not disputing my A minuses I deserved them. Just wanted to get a feel for what other people in different departments think about their grading system and the value of an "A."

What about the A+? I've seen it on assignments but never as a final grade in Humanities.

Edited September 10, 2011 by clio11

[cliopatra]

Now I'm depressed. I've only taken one graduate history class and I got a B+.... I'm taking another one this semester but my grade won't be posted when I send out my transcripts. Gotta work on my writing sample.

please don't be upset! It's only one course. I applied for my MA with B pluses in two history courses. Are you in grad school right now? If you're worried about applying with a B+ on your UG transcript, it won't hurt you.

Edited September 10, 2011 by clio11

[crazedandinfused]

please don't be upset! It's only one course. I applied for my MA with B pluses in two history courses. Are you in grad school right now? If you're worried about applying with a B+ on your UG transcript, it won't hurt you.

I finished my Master's in International Development (UN/poverty reduction stuff) in April. I took one grad seminar in history as an elective. I did really well on all my papers but never spoke much in seminar, so I got a B+....... I'm taking another seminar now but my grade won't be in by the deadline for all but two of the schools I'm applying to. I'm just getting the normal application season related stress.

Edited September 11, 2011 by crazedandinfused

[Sigaba]

From my understanding in most Canadian departments a a thesis is a larger paper usually over 100 pages, comprised of chapters and entails a much broader scope. There is a defense following presentation of the thesis to the department. A research essay is not a thesis. It is a paper usually in the 35-60 page range meant to be published as an article once the MA is complete. Some MA programs have essay streams (usually 1yr) and thesis streams (2yrs). Writing a research essay involves more coursework in most programs.

The University of Texas at Austin offers a "report" option and a "thesis" option for the M.A. The former requires more course work and a shorter work based upon original research. The latter requires slightly less course work but a more substantial research project. If one has an especially thick skull, it is pretty easy to fulfill the course requirements for the report option and proceed to write a report that is longer and delves much deeper into primary source materials than necessary.

So I guess this goes back to my original question: how do you know if your grades are fair? How do you find out where you rank in comparison with your colleagues?

Ultimately, it is going to be each student's own judgement. IME, I got a lot of grades I did not like but never one that I did not deserve. Insofar as comparing notes, I rarely spoke to classmates about grades. I was more likely to talk to professors so I could get a better sense of where I needed to improve and how I could do it. This approach reflected the hard-earned understanding that I am better off when I compete against my potential than against others. (A downside of this approach is that one can earn a reputation among one's classmates for being aloof.)

Just wanted to get a feel for what other people in different departments think about their grading system and the value of an "A."

To me, what was more important than the grade was the professor's feed back. I started off working with one of the premier historians in my field of emphasis. However, when I worked with him, he was very much in the twilight of his career. For the most part, I received very high marks but minimal feedback. At the time, I thought I was hot stuff. Yet, even at my most delusional (chronic insomnia, excessive caffeine intake, and lots of Actifed can lead to some incredibly stupid thoughts at three am ) I knew I wasn't so good that I didn't need to get bounced off the walls to improve my skill set.

So, for that and a couple of personal reasons, I changed schools. The change of scenery landed me in a department with some real hands-on types who gave their students the kind of support and shredding one needs to grow intellectually. (Yes, there was one notable exception, and let me tell you, I'm not the least bit bitter. Nope. Not a tad. Well. Okay. Maybe a little.)

In any case, I recommend that you do what you can to put your mind at ease. Remember, you are applying to Ph.D. programs having already earned a Master's. Your LoRs will come from professors who have seen you walk the walk as a graduate student. You've produced a work of original research to use as a writing sample. You are clearly conscientious about the craft of history and your own development as a historian. Your SoP will reflect these two admirable traits. All of these factors will, IMO, make your candidacy competitive--especially against undergraduates.