Where to Start?!

[sympatico]

Hey all,

I've been doing research on the different programs and trying to get a sense of where I should be looking and what kind of schools would be best for me and I'm feeling extraordinarily overwhelmed.

I can't seem to get a sense of the different programs from their websites and I was wondering if anyone had advice? I'm in Tennessee and it is possible that I could travel later but most likely I'd never be able to go see the schools in person before deadlines are up.

Maybe if I were to give a brief description of my wants/needs for school you could help me narrow it down?

I'm a painter. My work plays with a balance of figuration and abstraction and I lean toward a pretty rough sensibility in terms of "technical tightness." My BFA had a strong conceptual basis (thesis requirement to graduate) and I enjoy conceptual work and I think it's important to appreciate the freedom inherent in art - I have a very wide definition of what I consider "good" art. I can even appreciate the "bad painting" coming out of Yale that you've all been talking about.. lol

My ideal course load would be: one contemporary "history/theory" class and all studio time otherwise. I'm not certain that teaching is something I'd be interested in, at least not within the framework of making work, as I see it to be a huge drain of time (I'm witnessing this first hand). I know teaching can help refine your own sensibilities but.. still not sure about it.

I'd prefer a 3 year program, though I'm open to 2.

I am open to interdisciplinary work but I would want the ability to potentially focus only on painting without any negative repercussions. I don't want faculty getting pissed because I'm not being expansive in media.

I'm primarily interested in Southern California and the Northeast as these are the places I want to live after school.

Looking at:

UCLA

Cal Arts

Art Center

Iowa (friend got accepted there last year and she said the faculty were awesome but she went to Yale instead)

Hunter

Yale (maybe, though I'm not super crazy about the faculty)

I'm going up to SAIC this weekend with a friend but I'm not sure Chicago is a place I want to live.

Columbia seems like a waste of an application and the money seems insane to me.

Anyway, sorry for the wall of info. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[TheStranger]

From what I've noticed, the vast majority of programs seem to be two year programs. Also, I think as long as you apply to a painting program, you'd be fine 'just' painting. As my professor said, the important thing is getting into a grad program. Once you're in, you can do what you want.

Hunter seems like a good choice because it's a good program in New York, but its like a city college and the tuition reflects that. Their acceptance rate is better as well. I agree with you about Columbia. I'm sure it is a good program but it is expensive...the most expensive one I've run across while researching. Yale...I feel like if you can get in, you'd probably take that chance because of the name. UCLA is probably the hot school at the moment...it will be super competitive. I think you should also consider Tyler, MICA, RISD and SVA. You'll need some more backup schools though. In So Cal, I've been through the undergrad program at CSULB in Long Beach. While I will not apply there, I do think it would make for a good backup. They're more "abstract versus figurative" there though so be warned. And their studio spaces are cramped...like slightly-better-than-a-cubicle cramped.

I've decided I should go to a school where I would want to live as well so I will probably only be applying to so cal schools.

[losemygrip]

I've decided I should go to a school where I would want to live as well so I will probably only be applying to so cal schools.

This is fine if your goal is to be an artist and advance your understanding, but if you want an academic job, it is not a good idea. At all. Just FYI for anyone thinking about doing this.

I think your list is pretty good, except as everyone knows I'm very down on Yale. If you want to go to the NYC area, SUNY Purchase is better than Hunter. And from the description of your work, I think you'd find a more welcoming environment there. Consider U. Conn also. I concur with your friend's high estimation of Iowa in painting.

[sympatico]

Thanks!

I talked to a friend who is at Claremont (staff) and he said it's great, but expensive. Also gave me a rundown on some places and my list has changed somewhat:

ucla

usc

art center

usclb

irvine

researching researching!

Another thing: I have a terrible (really) gpa thanks to various junk that happened while in school. UCLA, USC, UConn and other schools also say a 3.0 is a minimum requirement. Is this legit? Is it something that is hard and fast or can it be overlooked? My gpa doesn't reflect my intelligence or commitment and I don't want to be held back by the mistakes I made over 6 years ago.

Friend said it's irrelevant, but it still freaks me the hell out.

[TheStranger]

This is fine if your goal is to be an artist and advance your understanding, but if you want an academic job, it is not a good idea. At all. Just FYI for anyone thinking about doing this.

I asked my professor about it a couple weeks ago. I asked him that if someone had a west and east coast education and came back to the west coast for a job, how an east coast degree would look. He said it doesn' matter because they're looking for someone who fits into their faculty more than the idea that someone went to the east and came back. I thought it all made sense because I'd leave 2 years of connections and networks in the east and come back with not much immediate support. I've heard about people going to great schools for their MFA and not being able to do much with it. Plus the debt would be so much higher due to out-of-state tuition, living costs, etc. Consequently now I've been concentrating solely on good so cal schools. Afterall, I do plan on living the rest of my life in so cal. What have been your experiences on the topic?

[losemygrip]

Stranger: I disagree. Sometimes the local connection can help with an academic job because you're a familiar known quantity. You get in based on personal contacts. However, that is typically not how the "better" schools work. You want diversity in your faculty, and that includes diversity of background and education. Otherwise it gets incestuous and looks bad, like a sort of closed shop. Local products can get the part-time or temp jobs, but probably not tenure-track. Not to say it doesn't happen--there are certainly faculty and departments that think like the person you're talking to. But I don't think it's an advantage. It's also not good for your development as an artist to always be in the same environment.

Simpatico: I imagine if they say 3.0, they mean 3.0. That may be a requirement of the institution's graduate school and not the department. It's possible that your application would be knocked out of contention before it ever reached the department. You could call the departments and ask, but in a competitive environment, they're looking for any reason to reject applicants, and that's an easy one.

How many courses would you have to repeat to bring up your undergrad GPA?

[losemygrip]

Oh, and I once worked in a department with an MFA student who was functionally illiterate. When I questioned the chair as to what the expectations were for students' academic abilities, his response was, "But her paintings are amazing." I can't imagine this student could have had a 3.0 (I can't even imagine how she earned a bachelor's degree, or even a high school diploma), so clearly not everyone requires great grades.

[sympatico]

As far as I understand (from my advisor/dean) there is no way for me to go back and fix my GPA at this point. I graduated back in 2009.

[TheStranger]

Stranger: I disagree. Sometimes the local connection can help with an academic job because you're a familiar known quantity. You get in based on personal contacts. However, that is typically not how the "better" schools work. You want diversity in your faculty, and that includes diversity of background and education. Otherwise it gets incestuous and looks bad, like a sort of closed shop. Local products can get the part-time or temp jobs, but probably not tenure-track. Not to say it doesn't happen--there are certainly faculty and departments that think like the person you're talking to. But I don't think it's an advantage. It's also not good for your development as an artist to always be in the same environment.

So assuming I want to teach and build up to tenure at a "better" school, I can see where a diverse education can become very desirable. But in terms of a "better" school, this would mean schools like the ones everybody always mentions here when they want to apply to a grad school? (RISD, MICA, Yale, SAIC, Columbia, Tyler, USC, UCLA, etc) However, I don't necessarily care to teach for schools such as these, which I suppose I would be deem "better." I would be fine teaching at a cal state school or a city college with no huge reputation but has a presence. The school I am at now, actually, is maybe unique in that the importance is put on how well the faculty get along with each other. This is greatly contrasted to the other school I went to where the faculty were split and often times had negative feelings towards each other...which reflected in the school's department curriculum. It was like having a pizza with really good toppings but it all didn't mesh together and fell apart in your mouth when you tried to eat it. But anyway, that's just one of the many things on my mind. Thanks for the input!

I will look more into this though. I really kind of just want to start my life, get my own place, settle down in California while getting my MFA and teaching courses all around until a school sticks. Going off to New York or the east coast now seems to be an added burden-- financially, networking and stability-wise (especially when you have a gf who wants to follow you yet also wants to get a hold of a job/career). I thought about it...struggling in the east coast and coming back with a huge debt and no one in California who directly knows who I am. That's quite a scary thought. I've seen my friends (in art and other majors) only get to where they are because they knew someone. I see it at my part time job, how they will hire based on how well they know someone too. I will ask another professor from another school about this topic and will let you guys know what I've heard. I think this is something a lot of grad applicants have in the back of their mind once the romantic idea of great art schools is figured out.

[TheStranger]

Well I asked another professor at a different school whom I hold in high regard. She is very much on the same idea that it is a good idea to stay in California. The LA Art Scene is growing, I'm already established here, and there are plenty of schools to choose from (not to mention they are much less expensive). It's definitely a personal decision as well. Perhaps if I was in the middle of nowhere I would want to move...but I'm already in LA. I agree with your advice in the general sense and I think some people here should take that advice. But in my situation this is the best life choice to stay near LA and in So Cal. I would say to whomever is thinking about these things and is reading this to really consider how much debt you want to be paying off for the rest of your life and how much payback it really is...because it will affect your life as long as you have that debt and it does not guarantee you a job over someone who knows the faculty already really well. And if you're like me and want to start a life, this would be difficult when your 50-80k in debt. Teaching art is what I want to do, and to continue making art is what I want to do...and I can accomplish all this in LA. The only school I would not apply to here is the one I got my undergrad from. Basically make an informed decision based on your personal goals and values.

On that note, if anyone has any good So Cal schools in mind I wouldn't mind hearing them. UCLA, Irvine, UCS, Art Center, Clarmont, Cal Arts, OTIS? I am a painter but my work is conceptually based and plays with either projection, material o sculptural/installation.

[losemygrip]

If you're interested in community college teaching, it shouldn't be such a problem (and there's nothing wrong with that). So given the career goals you have in mind you're probably OK staying put. The LA art scene is great; I've certainly gone on record here many times as recommending southern California to everyone. But it's easy to become complacent and/or insular (New York is a perfect example) when you just experience one place.

I've seen some nice work from Fullerton, unless that's where you are now. The others you mention are all good; UCLA is the best in the country in my opinion. Again, you may not be quite as attractive to them being that you're a "local product." (Classes of grad students are also put together thinking of diversity.) But you really don't have to go to a school like UCLA to do what you want. Those private schools will be really expensive. If you're accepted there make sure it's with complete funding.

Can you go as far south as San Diego?

[sympatico]

TheStranger - I seriously do not see any benefit to leaving LA if you're already established there. If I were in the same situation it would be a no brainer to stay. The in-state tuition is enough of a draw in itself. That being said - make sure you don't just hang out with the same people you've been hanging out with for the last 4 years. Make an active attempt to get out there and see new stuff.

[TheStranger]

If you're interested in community college teaching, it shouldn't be such a problem (and there's nothing wrong with that). So given the career goals you have in mind you're probably OK staying put. The LA art scene is great; I've certainly gone on record here many times as recommending southern California to everyone. But it's easy to become complacent and/or insular (New York is a perfect example) when you just experience one place.

I've seen some nice work from Fullerton, unless that's where you are now. The others you mention are all good; UCLA is the best in the country in my opinion. Again, you may not be quite as attractive to them being that you're a "local product." (Classes of grad students are also put together thinking of diversity.) But you really don't have to go to a school like UCLA to do what you want. Those private schools will be really expensive. If you're accepted there make sure it's with complete funding.

Can you go as far south as San Diego?

So So Cal. I kid...I wouldn't mind going towards SD, I just don't think I'd want to go to much into Nor Cal. The list of schools I had in mind are the only ones I have considered so far (I spent all summer researching east coast schools). I will say I prefer to be near LA, but So Cal is all game.

TheStranger - I seriously do not see any benefit to leaving LA if you're already established there. If I were in the same situation it would be a no brainer to stay. The in-state tuition is enough of a draw in itself. That being said - make sure you don't just hang out with the same people you've been hanging out with for the last 4 years. Make an active attempt to get out there and see new stuff.

Like losemygrip mentioned, there are some benefits in moving away from your area (as there are anytime you diversify your knowledge and experience geographically); but yes, there are definitely a lot of benefits to staying and I am pretty much settled on So Cal now. New York was very much a romanticized idea I had and when I had that idea I was not in the same position or mindset as I am now with life and goals.

Thanks for your inputs. As always they are very helpful.

[truthbetold]

A word about Columbia...

Yes it is expensive. Note that the sticker price is not the actual price; every student gets $15,500/year and then $5000/year more if they choose to work/TA. This still makes it VERY expensive. It isn't free like USC or VCU Sculpture, but then again it isn't like those programs either. Nor is it like "practically" priced Hunter. Nor is it like the departmentally separated Yale. An MFA isn't like a driver's license (where all you need is the certification to be on the road and everyone on the road has one); it's more like the car you drive (which is somehow a reflection of you... in its style, use, and yes, sometimes, price).

Columbia (and its price tag) is not for everyone, but it is an amazing program. If you just want to "go to art school" (spend a lot of time in your studio, have some visits and some critiques) it may not be worth it. If you want an education and a network then it may be worth it (to be clear, going to Columbia is not the only way to do these things, but it is a very expedient, recognized way). No other school has anything like the mentor program. Only a couple other schools can even come close to competing with the academic options available through Columbia University (though most students don't take full advantage of it). Every week there are visiting speakers and artists instead of every month like many other programs. You will be far ahead of someone who has gone to school outside of NYC and has to move to NYC (or LA) and network their way into things.

I could go on, but essentially I am saying that you are paying a premium for something that is premium. I agree that taking on the cost without outside financial support (other than loans) is not a risk that everyone should take.

If you will tolerate the metaphor... : You can play golf at the public course or the country club. There are good and bad golfers in each. But it should be noted that much of the business of the "art world" is done at the country club. I am not condoning or condemning this, just stating it. (And to clarify before the metaphor goes too far, I am not saying Columbia students are snotty elitists. They are not. Quite the opposite. Admission is still merit based. Nor am I saying Columbia or any other school is a 100% guarantee to get you in to the art world, that there are not other ways in, or that you want to be in it in the first place.)

Edited September 29, 2011 by truthbetold

[losemygrip]

You should certainly include San Diego in your net. Since you're geographically limited, if I were you I would just apply to every reasonable program in your geographic radius and see where you get the best deal.