poeteer Posted February 8, 2012 Author Posted February 8, 2012 Still, the "Creative Writing PhD" is not wildly respected. I mean, there aren't many programs out there yet, and even fewer in desirable locales -- though the applications are rising fast -- and the degree holds the same value as an MFA in many respects. It only really qualifies you to teach in a creative writing program, since the dissertation for most of these programs is a creative one. U-Madison has a hybrid option: you can concentrate in creative writing, which means you can take workshops and work with creative writing professors, but your dissertation is a scholarly one. I hope it works out this year, desipoet, but if it doesn't, maybe you can apply there (as well as Milwaukee). I thought about applying for that program option, but then I realized that I truly do want to devote at least half of my dissertation period to creative work.
Tabz Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 It seems rather ridiculous that a creative writing MFA (which I will soon have) is treated so badly. That said, I can't wait for the Dr. to be placed in front of my name. Mainly so I can say, "I'm a doctor, but not the kind that can do you any good."
poeteer Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 Well, what do you mean by "badly"? The English MA is also treated badly. I'd say the crwr MFA is treated better than the English MA, in some ways, because it's still relatively terminal. I don't know if I agree with the notion that crwr MFA or PhD should qualify anyone for much else (in academia) than teaching in creative writing programs at either the grad or undergrad level, or as creative writing faculty in an English program that features an MA or concentration in creative writing. The PhD is definitely gain steam, but I still think the MFA can be enough: if you only have an MFA, but yo're winning all sorts of awards and grants and accolades, and your book is with a major press or won some major prize, you're going to get a job over the Ph.D with less presence in the community...
honeybrew Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 How many and of what quality of publications did you list when you applied to CW Ph.D.'s? Sorry, again, sizing up the competition. But, I love all you!
honeybrew Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I don't think the GRE Lit matters very much. Several programs that once required it have since dropped the requirement. General GRE may affect funding opportunities, but probably not much else. Though it's best to meet grad school minimums where they exist, so they don't have to petition for you. It's really all about the creative sample, I think! This waiting period is god awful. I do wonder how much the Critical Writing Sample matters... I know some programs require multiple hard copies of both Critical and Creative Writing Samples. Anyways!
Tanya McQueen Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Honeybrew--I would think the critical sample would matter more than publications, right? Who knows really, to be honest. My GRE scores were mediocre at best, and my critical sample I try not to think about because I get anxious over it. At least with MFAs you know that it's mostly the writing sample that counts but is that 100 percent true with these programs? As for the GRE in Lit. I didn't take it this time around. I took it when I was applying for MFA programs way back when and I did poorly on it. I thought about taking it again this time around but there's only one school I was interested in that required it and I didn't want to go through the trouble/expense for just one school. That test sucks though.
honeybrew Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Here's my list, and it may be wrong: Publications, creative writing sample, extra cirricular (ie James Franco), transcripts, critical writing sample, recommendations, gre, teaching experience, lit gre. But whatever, waiting sucks.
Tanya McQueen Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 What would extra-curriculars be? I have no extra-curricular activities!
honeybrew Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 In the case of James Franco: Sucking up creative film rights to all sorts of novels. One being BLOOD MERIDIAN that jerk.
poeteer Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 It's still mostly the creative sample, I think. I'd say it's 95% that and 5% everything else put together, within reason. That is, if you have an 800 on the GRE and a 2.0 UGPA, and no explanation for it, there might be a problem. If you have like a 1250 GRE and a 3.5 UGPA, I think they're moving on and not thinking much more of it (unless their funding situation requires some candidates to get grad fellowships with higher minimums). Look at how many people on these boards get into top top English programs with good-but-not astronomical stats/resumes/whatever. They get in because their scholarly writing sample and SOP killed it and matched with faculty interests. Same with the MFA -- your ms. gets you in, period, and aesthetic preferences do play a role in how your ms. is received. I really do think it's the same with a creative writing Ph.D -- the sample is the only thing that gets you to the finalist round. Then they might take everything else into account -- probably the SOP comes first, then CV/awards/publications and recommendations, and the critical sample to make sure you're competent enough for the English program of which the crwr program is a part -- and try to decide between waitlists and acceptances. But it's all so subjective and subject to unpredictable factors such as departmental politics and sometimes connections (via recommenders or otherwise).
Tabz Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Well, what do you mean by "badly"? The English MA is also treated badly. I'd say the crwr MFA is treated better than the English MA, in some ways, because it's still relatively terminal. I don't know if I agree with the notion that crwr MFA or PhD should qualify anyone for much else (in academia) than teaching in creative writing programs at either the grad or undergrad level, or as creative writing faculty in an English program that features an MA or concentration in creative writing. The PhD is definitely gain steam, but I still think the MFA can be enough: if you only have an MFA, but yo're winning all sorts of awards and grants and accolades, and your book is with a major press or won some major prize, you're going to get a job over the Ph.D with less presence in the community... Well, that's fine, but some people still go *sniff* MFA? Like you got some inferior disease. LOL I do want to teach eventually, which is why I'm going on for the PhD. In this work environment you need everything you can get to stand out.
desipoet Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Still, the "Creative Writing PhD" is not wildly respected. I mean, there aren't many programs out there yet, and even fewer in desirable locales -- though the applications are rising fast -- and the degree holds the same value as an MFA in many respects. It only really qualifies you to teach in a creative writing program, since the dissertation for most of these programs is a creative one. U-Madison has a hybrid option: you can concentrate in creative writing, which means you can take workshops and work with creative writing professors, but your dissertation is a scholarly one. I hope it works out this year, desipoet, but if it doesn't, maybe you can apply there (as well as Milwaukee). I thought about applying for that program option, but then I realized that I truly do want to devote at least half of my dissertation period to creative work. Thanks, poeteer!That's really helpful. I know I love my scholarly work, esp. papers, so I am not altogether opposed to CW courses and an academic dissertation (as long as I get to teach a poetry workshop every now and then). Sure, I'd prefer to work on my poems, but if, as you said, having an academic project is more likely to get me hired, I'll definitely apply. Edited February 9, 2012 by desipoet
honeybrew Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 It's still mostly the creative sample, I think. I'd say it's 95% that and 5% everything else put together, within reason. That is, if you have an 800 on the GRE and a 2.0 UGPA, and no explanation for it, there might be a problem. If you have like a 1250 GRE and a 3.5 UGPA, I think they're moving on and not thinking much more of it (unless their funding situation requires some candidates to get grad fellowships with higher minimums). Look at how many people on these boards get into top top English programs with good-but-not astronomical stats/resumes/whatever. They get in because their scholarly writing sample and SOP killed it and matched with faculty interests. Same with the MFA -- your ms. gets you in, period, and aesthetic preferences do play a role in how your ms. is received. I really do think it's the same with a creative writing Ph.D -- the sample is the only thing that gets you to the finalist round. Then they might take everything else into account -- probably the SOP comes first, then CV/awards/publications and recommendations, and the critical sample to make sure you're competent enough for the English program of which the crwr program is a part -- and try to decide between waitlists and acceptances. But it's all so subjective and subject to unpredictable factors such as departmental politics and sometimes connections (via recommenders or otherwise). I was told by my advisor, who was the program director, and received a Ph.D. in cw from Utah, that Ph.D.'s (at the very least Utah) look really hard at publications. Shows writerly professionalism and determination and whatnot. And, to a small extent, confirms you are a good, respected writer to the committee. All that said, I hope it is 95% creative sample and my advisor was just pushing me to get published.
poeteer Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) That does make sense, true. I think the publications (and awards and whatnot) do matter, of course, but I also hope they are more forgiving of a lower level of publications if the work submitted 1) reads as publishable in high tier magazines (i.e., if it seems as good or better as work typically published there), or 2) has been honored in other ways. In other words, I hope that they are looking at potential to succeed as well as previously earned success. It wouldn't do them well to reject the next Anne Carson in favor of Joe P. (who writes good work that's been well received by journals but not necessarily genius or likely to last), who happened to have a better publication list at the time of application... I'll also note that I think it's 95% sample up until the finalist round. In the finalist round, I think the little details start to matter more. Edited February 9, 2012 by poeteer
Tabz Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Yes, I agree, I believe from everyone I've talked to currently in the Creative Writing PhD - your sample is what really matters and how that fits into the school.
Tanya McQueen Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 God, I hope all that's true. It's slightly more comforting to hear that.
desipoet Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Strangely enough, that makes me despair even more. I polished the poems as much as I could, but I can't help be paranoid that this specific project isn't going to get me in. (I'm doing collage based on Tamil/ Hindi cinema and archetypal characters and I am not getting particularly great responses from editors I'm sending it out too--again, this has happened in the last one month. Boo, early deadlines).
poeteer Posted February 10, 2012 Author Posted February 10, 2012 someone was accepted to Mizzou in fiction today...according to the results survey. I'm poetry but I'm getting sad about it already. "
honeybrew Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 Is that the first cw Ph.D. notification we know of?
poeteer Posted February 10, 2012 Author Posted February 10, 2012 Texas Tech has accepted some people. I'm trying not to freak out because it's in fiction and poetry and fiction faculty obviously meet separately. Plus I only received my "your application is complete" email a little over a week ago. Still, it's hard not to be worried. Mizzou has a great program.
Tabz Posted February 11, 2012 Posted February 11, 2012 And yeah, I got that email about a week ago. Seems weird that they're already accepting people. *sigh* USC is my first choice though, I remain slightly hopeful.
stylechallenge10 Posted February 13, 2012 Posted February 13, 2012 I've applied to several literature and creative writing PhD's, and I wondered you all thought about the "literature" part. USC's program is expressly billed as literature & creative writing, but do you think that it's really just writers who suffer through the literature portion? I'm really interested in doing both, hence my excitement to find the program!
Tabz Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 My MA and MFA in creative writing had strong emphasis on literature. I don't think there's a lot of writers who aren't literature fiends!
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