Help! Need advice from current grad students that work in a lab with undergrads

[abg]

Hi everyone,

I'm in my third year of undergrad at a top university in the U.S. (i.e., I assume the grad students here are very busy people) and I recently began working in a research laboratory. After an initial evaluation project, the PI decided to hire me and has even petitioned his grant for money to pay me with (which is rare for non work study undergrads, ugh). So I take this to mean that the PI wants me around, right? I mean, he specifically told me he was impressed with my work and that he wanted me on the team and he was going to try to pay me.

Now, my second project involved a grad student in the lab training me. The project was assigned about three-four weeks ago. I haven't even started it. Why? I've tried to meet with the grad student three times now and each time he's blown me off, basically. The first time he said he had to leave early and the machine was currently occupied (reasonable), the second time he just forgot about me and was in some other building when I showed up and when I called him he just said to meet him the next day, the third time he sent me an e-mail two hours before we were supposed to meet and said he was too busy that day. This was the Wednesday before Thanksgiving and I just told him to e-mail me whenever he was free after break.

And I haven't heard back from him since. If he's just busy, I completely understand. But I've talked to a few people and it seems like there's a distinct possibility he's not just busy. Apparently there's a negative vibe from some grad students towards undergrads in the lab. Which is completely ridiculous- how are you supposed to decide if you want to go to grad school if you never work in a lab as an undergrad? Anyway, another one of the grad students was talking to me and she was asking about what I was interested in and she said, "Oh, well, the lab next to ours actually does more stuff with that. Have you talked to them?" Which I didn't give much thought to until this whole issue sprang up. It sort've seems as if they'd like undergrads out of the lab. Particularly since our lab DOES do what I was talking about (altho it could be possible that the lab next to ours does more, I don't know). Also, she specifically asked if I was interested in doing an honors thesis (I don't know; usually we start those the summer before fourth year here). So maybe undergrad honors theses annoy grad students? There's only one other undergrad in the lab and she's doing an honor's thesis, so maybe that annoys them for some reason? I can't imagine why.

Everyone seems really nice but I'm beginning to wonder if I'm welcome. I can't possibly have done anything to annoy them yet, as the other undergrad was the one who initially trained me.

And my PI is supposed to be petitioning his grant for money to pay me and I haven't even BEEN in the lab for the past three weeks, except to show up, realize my grad student was not there, and leave. Is there anything I should be doing, either to help my PI or grad student? To be fair, it is entirely possible that the PI just shoved me off on this grad student and that the grad student doesn't really want my help. But it's not MY fault. Furthermore, if the guy is annoyed by having to teach me things, I really wish he would just tell me or the PI so I could be assigned a different project (the PI said if this one didn't interest me, he could try to find me something different). It just seems immature to ignore me and hope I'll go away.

But maybe he's just super busy? Grad students, what do you think? If he is trying to get rid of me, should I approach him and try to give him an out (although you would think a man several years older than myself would be able to figure out how to politely tell me that he does not want/need my help.) Also, does he even have a choice in the matter? I mean, the PI is his boss. If the PI tells him to train me, can he just refuse or no? I understand that it might be frustrating to him if he doesn't want to train me and he doesn't want my help, and he can't actually tell me so for fear of making the PI angry. But why take it out on me?!

Any ideas? And what should I do? Give him another week or so (it is finals week, after all) and then if he still doesn't contact me, e-mail him again and ask what's going on? I'm just afraid the PI is going to think I'm the laziest person he ever decided to hire. But I don't want to talk to the PI about it for fear of getting the grad student in trouble and then permanently pissing the guy off. Sigh.

Sorry this is so long.. hopefully someone will read it.

[Eigen]

Well, for one thing, don't leave it up to the grad student to contact you when he has time. Don't be too pushy, but keep reminding him. When my undergrads leave things too open or up to me, there's a good chance that it will drop completely off my radar/I won't realize that it's been two weeks already since they told me that.

I'll also add this: Undergrads are a lot of work. Having one work with me probably doubles the time it takes to do anything, conservatively. Additionally, they're not an "official" part of our job responsibilities- so a lot of times PIs don't see them as an excuse for work going slower, even though they're taking up a lot of time. And this is even with top-shelf undergrads. Having to think through and explain everything that you'd normally do almost by reflex takes a lot of time and preparation, especially if you want to give the background and help them understand why and how it works so they can apply it on their own in the future.

Different PIs handle this different ways- mine will queue interested undergrads, and then ask our group if any of the grad students have the time or inclination to take them on. I like this approach, since it insures that we're ready and willing to take on undergrads when we do... But not all PIs do it this way. Some others in our department just dump them on already overloaded grad students with no warning and really vague directions, and that's a lot more hit or miss.

As to thesis vs. non-thesis- all of the grad students I know much prefer to work with undergrads doing theses. The reason being, we know they're in it for a while, and really want to get into research. We also have a ton of pre-med students that people really dislike working with- you end up spending a lot of time training them, knowing that they'll never use any of it down the road. It just seems like a near-complete waste of time. Sometimes its not, but it's much harder to see the value in it. In my experience, it takes somewhere between 12-18 months of training before the average undergrad can be working mostly independently- basically, it's a long time before they're more help than distraction to you. If you end up with an undergrad researcher that's going to spend less than that time with you, you're basically just doing a service with no return on investment.

As to your other point (that you were referred by grad students to another lab)- sometimes two labs work in an area, but for one it's a main thrust with lots of places to work yourself in, and in another it's a side project with very little to do. In that case, the grad student might be recommending a lab to you that would be a better fit long term.

To sum up, I think the best things you can do are: read a lot and be really prepared so you slide into the research easily, and make sure they know you're in it for the long haul. Both of these will probably make you a lot more attractive and easy to work with. That said, at least the attitude that you're giving off in your post really would rub me the wrong way if you were supposed to be working for me.... Try to keep in mind that the grad students are taking time (a lot of time) out of a very busy schedule to not just spend a little time training you, but also to think through and design experiments and projects for you to work on- it's a big commitment from them, and the more you come across like you appreciate it and their time (and the less like you think it's owed to you) the better experience you'll have.

[ktel]

Regardless of whether he's annoyed with you or doesn't want to spend time showing you how to do things, his PI has requested that he does this, so he should do it. It's up to you to ensure that he remembers this.

To put it bluntly your post sounds needy, which is understandable, but something you should avoid. Just contact him and keep the pressure on until you're trained to the point you need to be. It's good practice for grad school where nobody is ever going to ask you if you need help, it's all up to you. Don't worry so much about whether you annoy the grad students or not, because it doesn't matter as long as you can get your work done.

[abg]

Thanks for the replies. I don't think I've ever been needy or demanding to him, I'm just feeling frustrated because I don't know what's expected of me and thus my post probably sounded a bit blah. I really don't want to annoy him or anything and I do appreciate the time he's going to be taking to teach me. I have no idea if I want to go into research though, that's why I'm trying out working in a lab, to see if I like it or not. At the very least, if I spend enough time there I would try to publish something (like a thesis, etc) so I was productive. I've thought about med school but premeds tend to rub me the wrong way, ugh. So I have my doubts about spending the rest of my professional life with them. But I don't know that grad school is for me. So... we'll see.

I shall e-mail him and apologize for bothering him but remind him that we are supposed to be doing something at some point in time. Or something. And I've read up on the procedure we're doing three times now (since we were supposed to meet three times, lol) so I know it very, very well. Perhaps that was his plan all along...

[ktel]

Yes, the feeling of not knowing what's expected of you is not unfamiliar to me. The best way to fix it is to keep bugging people until you do know what is expected. You don't need to apologize for bothering him, but you do need to remind him.