If you want to teach in the USA

[superfluousflo]

Hello all,

I am curious to know if anyone has any data on the success of PhDs from Oxford and Cambridge at getting jobs in the USA. Is there a greater likelihood of getting a US job with an American degree? Are Oxford and Cambridge, and perhaps other international universities, possible exceptions to any rule?

Thoughts are appreciated but data is encouraged.

cheers!

[goldielocks]

Hi there,

I see that you were accepted to Cambridge. Congratulations! That's wonderful.

To answer your question: I don't know about other fields, but in mine (Modern Britain), an Oxbridge degree goes a long way. Many of the biggest names in my specialization matriculated there, and now teach at some of the top programs in the states. I'm not sure about other universities, but I do know that several of the big names in my field attended some of the red bricks and have obviously done very well for themselves here in the states. I think it is important to bear in mind, too, how the unfortunate developments in the humanities and the job market have impacted placement for students from Oxford/Cambridge. But I would suspect (and this is merely speculation) that if you are studying a UK-related field, an Oxbridge degree would give you a leg up on the competition here in the USA.

Have you thought about emailing your POI or the postgraduate coordinator at Cambridge about this, now that you have an acceptance? I'm sure they would be the best people to speak to about this.

Hope this helps a bit, and again, congratulations on your acceptance!

Edited January 7, 2012 by goldielocks

[superfluousflo]

Thanks for the suggestion about contacting the school for more guidance. I guess I'm looking for placement records.

I'm interested in modern UK migration and postcolonial history. So, I think that studying in England could be helpful -- archives will be at my fingertips.

I think it is important to bear in mind, too, how the unfortunate developments in the humanities and the job market have impacted placement for students from Oxford/Cambridge.

What do you mean? Has the market down-turn affected Oxbridge job candidates more than, say, Ivy and Public Ivy candidates? Or are you just pointing out that it's tough out there for an new PhD to get a job?

Edited January 7, 2012 by superfluousflo

[SapperDaddy]

I was advised that it's very hard to get a job in the US with a foreign degree (Oxbridge being about the only exceptions). Central European University's Master's program is however accredited through US accreditation agencies.

[goldielocks]

What do you mean? Has the market down-turn affected Oxbridge job candidates more than, say, Ivy and Public Ivy candidates? Or are you just pointing out that it's tough out there for an new PhD to get a job?

The second one. Just referring to the bleak outlook for the field in general (which I'm sure you're informed on), not Oxbridge in particular.

[Loimographia]

I want to emphasize that much of what I'm about to say is hearsay, I have no personal knowledge or statistics. But I have definitely heard it said that it's difficult to get a US position with a UK degree because many american schools prefer PhDs who have more teaching experience, and that UK schools often either don't fund their PhDs (and all-but-never fund their MAs, though I do know one person who got a full scholarship) and when they do fund, do more fellowships than TA positions. UK academia, from what I've heard, is much more focused on publishing (and more books than articles, too) rather than teaching. That said, if you were accepted to an MA program, then GO GO GO, because what matters is your PhD for employment much more than your MA (indeed, in my area, medieval history, getting your MA in the UK and then coming back to the US is a pretty popular thing to do).

[superfluousflo]

The point about teaching is a good one. And, regarding funding, I won't go to a program that doesn't provide a full financial package. That said, I've been accepted to the PhD program and have considered pursuing an American post-doc if I take a British doc.

Edited January 7, 2012 by superfluousflo

[SapperDaddy]

The point about teaching is a good one. And, regarding funding, I won't go to a program that doesn't provide a full financial package. That said, I've been accepted to the PhD program and have considered pursuing an American post-doc if I take a British doc.

The issue with funding is less about the tuition as it is the money you have to have on deposit for a visa to the UK, from what I gather.

[crater21]

I haven't seen any official statistics or data about Oxbridge DPhils getting jobs in the United States. But, just from personal experience, I have seen many, many Oxbridge DPhils who are very well-placed in the United States and Canada.

Part of it depends on the field too. In certain fields, practically every big name has been through Oxbridge at some point, either for undergraduate or postgraduate work. So, in that sense, their networks are very strong. Oxbridge is a small world, and they sometimes have a tendency to look after their own.

[StrangeLight]

The point about teaching is a good one. And, regarding funding, I won't go to a program that doesn't provide a full financial package. That said, I've been accepted to the PhD program and have considered pursuing an American post-doc if I take a British doc.

um. all PhD grads, from any institution, will be applying for postdoc positions. we have no choice. the odds of landing a tenure-track job, even with degrees from "the top schools," are terrible. today, graduating PhDs have two avenues to eventually getting a tenure-track gig with lax-enough teaching requirements to allow them to do research: one is to get a tenure-track 4/4 teaching load job and work your butt off to have enough time to still do enough new research to get yourself out of that job, and the other is to get a postdoc. so, anyone that wants a tenure-track job that focuses at least in part on research will be applying for those postdocs. i mention this only to let you know that postdoc positions are as competitive as any teaching positions and regardless of where you do your degree, you WILL be applying for postdoc jobs.

it's true that oxbridge doesn't ask for a lot of teaching, which will almost automatically disqualify you from the 4/4 tenure-track jobs. it's not just oxbridge: anyone coming from a top ten school with little to no teaching experience will probably not be considered. anyone coming from any school with a fellowship package that had them teach for less than 2 years will also have a difficult time getting 4/4 jobs.

on the plus side, if your research is about the UK, studying in the UK makes a ton of sense for a host of reasons, the greatest being the proximity to your sources and to the experts in your field. on the down side, the culture of graduate school in the UK is VERY different from the grad school culture in the US, and any time i've heard departments consider hiring someone from oxbridge, they always have the conversation, "can this candidate adapt to the way we do things?" that hasn't stopped those candidates from being hired, but it's something additional you'll have to "prove" to american schools if you want to teach there.

[superfluousflo]

I guess I didn't realize so many people applied for postdocs. It does make sense though. I would think that an Oxbridge PhD would have a deeper, more expansive network for postdoctoral positions over a graduate from a lower-tier school. Am I mistaken? Perhaps it all comes down to research topic and fit. As it always seems to.

In terms of teaching and research: If you want to teach more than research, I suppose a 4/4 tenure track would be a god-send. At the moment, I am not interested in teaching at an R1.

Regarding teaching experience: Are more American schools moving away from allowing their doctoral students teach courses? I know that it's not required at Princeton and NYU. Does this hurt their prospects?

[superfluousflo]

That last post was too naive. In a 4/4 tenure track position, I understand that the expectations for research and continued contribution to one's field is still held in high order for tenure review and it is difficult to continue that work as you have a heavy teaching load. Even if one wants to be a liberal arts college, teaching a research are heavy early on, with teaching responsibilities subsiding as one progresses in one's career.

Better that than adjuncting, was my point.

[StrangeLight]

I guess I didn't realize so many people applied for postdocs. It does make sense though. I would think that an Oxbridge PhD would have a deeper, more expansive network for postdoctoral positions over a graduate from a lower-tier school. Am I mistaken? Perhaps it all comes down to research topic and fit. As it always seems to.

In terms of teaching and research: If you want to teach more than research, I suppose a 4/4 tenure track would be a god-send. At the moment, I am not interested in teaching at an R1.

Regarding teaching experience: Are more American schools moving away from allowing their doctoral students teach courses? I know that it's not required at Princeton and NYU. Does this hurt their prospects?

first, you are generally mistaken that an oxbridge student will have more connections to potential postdoc positions than someone from a lower-tiered graduate school. the network and reputation of one's primary advisor counts more than that of their graduate program, almost 100% of the time. what's more, your oxbridge profs will likely have most of their connections in the UK and europe. they also tend to attend UK/european conferences more often than american ones. in general, unless your advisor is going out of his or her way to make connections with US-based scholars, you'll have fewer connections to american postdoc positions than students from "lower-tiered" american schools.

princeton and NYU don't require their students to teach, but most do at least once or twice. it would be near impossible to find a tenure-track university job (as opposed to a research center with no teaching) without at least one semester of TA experience. without any meaningful teaching experience (meaning contact with the students, rather than being a grader) odds are you'll be looking at postdocs and one-year visiting assistant professorships as your only real option outside of pure research centers right out of grad school. you can later move up to a tenure-track job, but not right away with zero teaching experience. teaching is important, even at R1 schools, and the only way to show employers that you'd be good at it is if you've done it before. your students' teaching evaluations of you are important parts of any job application, even for 1/0 teaching loads.

most american schools are actually asking their MA and PhD students to teach even more. they're getting larger class sizes, more discussion sessions, they're asked/get to teach their own stand-alone courses. as faculty retire, they're usually replaced with adjuncts and more graduate student teaching than with new professors, because the precarious nature of contract-workers is a lot more affordable. i believe that columbia has recently required their graduate students on TAs to teach 2 courses a semester rather than 1.

if you don't teach, you'll go on the job market against PhDs from top 10 schools who have TAed 3 or 4 different courses and probably taught their own classes that they designed from scratch once or twice. they'll also have famous advisors and fellowships and great research. minimizing your teaching "burden" through fellowships is great, but never teaching at all is a big problem. many students at princeton and NYU "volunteer" for a year of teaching or use a TAship to supplement their income in their relatively expensive locations.

as for getting tenure at a liberal arts college, you're not usually asked to produce a book for tenure if you have a 4/4 teaching load. 5-7 articles is considered sufficient (and is, frankly, as much work as a book anyway). but the 4/4 load doesn't go away until you get tenured and/or get another job and are in a position to renegotiate your contract. your teaching responsibilities DO NOT subside as you progress through your career unless you get a job offer at another school and use that to leverage a better deal at your present institution OR you secure a bunch of fellowships that allows you to take a sabbatical without pay for a semester or two.

Edited January 15, 2012 by StrangeLight

[superfluousflo]

I totally agree that teaching is urgent. I have heard that it is difficult to get a TAship at Princeton regardless of your interest. At NYU, you're right, plenty of students teach even though it's not required. It helps to save money/push the fellowship into a sixth year.

I have some hope that my potential advisor at Cambridge will have some good contacts in the US as she received her PhD from Tufts.

Tenure is another conversation. I am just trying to assess my options.

[crater21]

superfluousflo, a quick point: you will have some opportunity to teach at Cambridge. In recent years, it has not been uncommon for graduate studentsto do some teaching (depending on how you and your supervisor arrange it). But, of course, the problem is that Cambridge teaching is very different from North American teaching. You're not teaching a class; instead, you're doing one-on-one tutorials.

Just out of curiosity, what's your area of study?

[superfluousflo]

superfluousflo, a quick point: you will have some opportunity to teach at Cambridge. In recent years, it has not been uncommon for graduate studentsto do some teaching (depending on how you and your supervisor arrange it). But, of course, the problem is that Cambridge teaching is very different from North American teaching. You're not teaching a class; instead, you're doing one-on-one tutorials.

Just out of curiosity, what's your area of study?

I am interested in South Asia and South Asian migration to England (London and Birmingham) in the middle of the 20th century.

Thanks for the point about teaching at Cambridge. That's reassuring. At UNC, in most fields, TAing involves basically tutorials but it's 1 on 20, not 1 on 1.

[crater21]

I am interested in South Asia and South Asian migration to England (London and Birmingham) in the middle of the 20th century.

Thanks for the point about teaching at Cambridge. That's reassuring. At UNC, in most fields, TAing involves basically tutorials but it's 1 on 20, not 1 on 1.

Ah, i see. Then you definitely do not need to be worried about your advisors having networks in the U.S. I am sure you already know that Cambridge is the gold standard when it comes to South Asian history. Cambridge-trained South Asianists are teaching all over the world. Their networks are extremely strong in this field. Congrats, btw! Getting into Cambridge for South Asian history is quite the achievement.

[superfluousflo]

Thanks Crater21. Now, for some funding.

Seems that you are interested in SA too?

[crater21]

I am very interested in SA, though it's not my main focus. My primary interest is the British Empire, and within that I am hoping to look at SA, among other places.

Good luck with funding! Keep your fingers crossed for Gates-Cambridge or any of the internal awards.

[Lustforlife]

Ah, i see. Then you definitely do not need to be worried about your advisors having networks in the U.S. I am sure you already know that Cambridge is the gold standard when it comes to South Asian history. Cambridge-trained South Asianists are teaching all over the world. Their networks are extremely strong in this field. Congrats, btw! Getting into Cambridge for South Asian history is quite the achievement.

This is not my field and I haven't read much South Asian history for many years, so please take this comment with a hefty grain of salt. When I had more of an interest in South Asia, however, my sense was that the offshoots of the Subaltern Studies group had greater prominence in the US. As Guha and others trashed the Cambridge school, I wonder if a Cambridge degree might even have some negative connotations to South Asianists in the US. Perhaps the impact of this question might have more to do with whether the OP sees him or herself as more of a South Asianist or a British historian (although transnationalism is encouraged as a methodological tool, you will probably have to decide on one primary field when it comes to finding a job).

You should of course feel proud about getting in anywhere. Congratulations are certainly in order and you don't need to stress about this too much until other schools start to make decisions. If you end up in the enviable but nevertheless difficult position of having to choose between multiple offers, one thing you should do is attempt to find out about each programs' recent graduates. You should be able to find out where they have placed recent graduates and the kinds of projects that these students have studied. While it is not very precise, you can also just go to the webpages of colleges that are similar to places where you might like to teach in order to learn from where their professors have received their PhDs. For example, if you think that you would like to work at a liberal arts college, look at Middlebury, Lewis and Clark, Pamona, Wesleyan, etc... and try to find out from where their young faculty graduated.

[superfluousflo]

Hey Lustforlife: The Cambridge school as such is defunct. Cambridge has moved a bit away from Imperial apologists. Not only that, but also the Subaltern Collective has come under considerable theoretical fire in the American, British, and Indian academy over the last 5 years if not longer. But, your point about looking for placements and looking at current faculties is a good one. I've found that Oxbridge seems to have as many profs at a lot of these schools as a Princeton or Yale, though it is difficult to find the young faculty members. Recent placement lists from Cambridge History have been more difficult to find.

Edited January 18, 2012 by superfluousflo

[crater21]

This is not my field and I haven't read much South Asian history for many years, so please take this comment with a hefty grain of salt. When I had more of an interest in South Asia, however, my sense was that the offshoots of the Subaltern Studies group had greater prominence in the US. As Guha and others trashed the Cambridge school, I wonder if a Cambridge degree might even have some negative connotations to South Asianists in the US. Perhaps the impact of this question might have more to do with whether the OP sees him or herself as more of a South Asianist or a British historian (although transnationalism is encouraged as a methodological tool, you will probably have to decide on one primary field when it comes to finding a job).

Just to piggyback on what superfluousflo wrote, the field of South Asian history has moved beyond the ideological positions of "Cambridge school", "Chicago School", "Subaltern Studies" etc. In fact, there are now historians at Cambridge who have written brilliant critiques of the "Cambridge school". Even some of the players who were associated with these schools are now taking their work in another direction. So, I genuinely don't think that being a Cambridge-trained South Asianist would have negative connotations.

[Lustforlife]

Thanks to both of you for the update. I wish I had the time to keep abreast of changes in other fields. South Asian history is a quite interesting field (and perhaps expanding given the high number of open positions this year) and I wish you both the best of luck in your careers.

If I remember correctly, US programs start to notify in a month or so, so good luck as you weigh your various options.