The Comp. Lit. V. Continental Philosophy Predicament

[walnutfff]

I am currently plagued by the precarious status of the European Continental Philosophical Tradition in contemporary academia. As most of you are probably well aware, continental philosophy has largely been relegated to departments as far and wide as comparative literature, german and french studies, sociology, etc.

I want a strong training in history of philosophy, but the thinkers i'd like to study most intently in addition to gaining a strong foundation in the history of philosophy, such as Lacan, Bataille, Derrida, Baudrillard, merleau-ponty, Levinas, Heidegger, are hard to find in most "Tier One" University's philo departments. It seems peculiar to me to apply to comparative literature departments when my primary interests have nothing to ultimately do with literature; if anything, for my purposes literature is only used instrumentally for questions of a more philosophical nature.

I realize that there are a lot of philosophy programs in okay schools with strong continental orientations (Stony brook, new school, U chicago, loyola, etc), but I am an extremely competitive student and, grotesquely and to my own utter embarrassment, I must admit that I don't want to sacrifice applying to more prestigious programs in order to accommodate my interests. i say this only pragmatically, because I know I can get into very competitive schools and desire to do so, if only because then my odds of getting a good tenured position after graduation are better.

anyone familiar with programs that might prove helpful to me, general insight, or 'Ivy' schools with weird highly interdisciplinary departments ? feel free to bully me into accepting my comp. lit. fate, however strange the title may seem to me now..

[JoMarie]

Why not apply to programmes in Europe? Do you speak French or German? You wouldn't have that problem at most French or German universities, and that's where most of the conversation takes place anyway, isn't it?

[magog]

Hi Savvy,

A few things you should keep in mind (just my opinions, but, I think, informed opinions):

The hierarchy of graduate programs is not the same as the hierarchy of undergrad. Ivy League, 'Public Ivy,' 'Southern Ivy,' etc don't matter all that much - what matters is the reputation of the particular program in which one intends to study. Remember, getting a job in academia is not the same as, say, going for an interview at Acme Financial. In the latter case, the general status and name recognition of a school weighs heavily in your favor. In the former case, let's say you want a tenure track position in subject X, have a PhD in X from Yale, but your competition has a PhD in X from Generic State University. If Generic State happens to have a leading department in X, and Yale doesn't, Ivy League be damned - you're not getting the job.

In your case, you're interested in the type of philosophy taught at only a handful of schools, *many of whom hire graduates from each other’s programs.*

You say your odds of getting a TT position are higher with an Ivy League philosophy PhD than one from, say, Stony Brook. This is probably true in general, but, I'll argue, *not if you want to study and eventually teach 19th and 20th century German/French Phenomenology and Psychoanalysis.*

So, if you're obsessed with the name of the school, go comp-lit, but realize that names like 'Harvard' and 'Yale' don't do much to impress the community of scholars that you want to join.

Edited February 23, 2012 by magog

[UnbearableNausea]

Well, I sort of agree with Magog but also sort of not. I think even those of us who are well-educated in the workings of institution status, tenture track positions, and the job market, still don't know (a) how brutally competitive the job market really is or ( b ) or how the job market will be when we enter it.

I am inclined to agree with Magog that good programs who are courting you for a position will know the faculty you studied under, will know how your institution ranks in that specific field, etc. and so I would be less worried than you are about giving up an "Ivy League" or "Top 4" position.

That bit aside...I am not sure that getting a good tenure track position has nothing to do with the name recognition of your institution. FSU might be #1 in the world for Action Theory, but some hiring committees just cannot see past the glamour that having a Yale/Stanford/NYU/Harvard/MIT grad on the faculty may yield, even if that program is not as highly ranked in the field.

All in all, as stupid as this sounds, there is really no way to know. I would say walk a fine balance between attending one of the best ranked institutions you can get into/will fund you but also making sure to attend those institutions where there is a clear advisor choice and a strong program for you. Would you want to go to NYU if the only time you could work on Continental authors was during your last two years on your thesis?

Have you looked into Philosophy and Literature programs?

Also, check out The Leiter Report's breakdown on 19th and 20th Century Continental Philosophy. There are plenty of top-tier programs up in group 1: http://www.philosoph...m/breakdown.asp

**edited to remove an unintended smiley face.**

Edited February 23, 2012 by UnbearableNausea

[magog]

but some hiring committees just cannot see past the glamour that having a Yale/Stanford/NYU/Harvard/MIT grad on the faculty may yield, even if that program is not as highly ranked in the field.

This is a good point, I probably overstated my case. The name recognition might be seen as a potential marketing tool for the dept. "We have X number of faculty from the Ivy League," or whatever.

Also, check out The Leiter Report's breakdown on 19th and 20th Century Continental Philosophy. There are plenty of top-tier programs up in group 1: http://www.philosoph...m/breakdown.asp

I think this can be a good resource, but be careful with it. Leiter himself has said that those interested in 20th century French phenomenology will find his rankings of little use. I think this is true also for those who take Derrida or Lacan seriously. Note that he does not have a sub-ranking category for phenomenology at all.

Of course, it's somewhat presumptuous for those of us who are 5-7 years removed from our PhDs to be discussing TT positions... but philosophy students aren't the humblest bunch.

Edited February 23, 2012 by magog

[walnutfff]

Thanks folks, I really appreciate the insight. I can assure you I feel perfectly absurd even wielding the word "tenure" as this point, but my mentors at NYU have forced it upon my fragile, freshly-graduated (bachelors) psyche and it has me a bit freaked out. All the schools they've told me to apply to if I want a good shot at a position after I graduate are quite glamorous (princeton, yale, columbia, etc.), but I feel like I would be compromising my interests in attending (assuming I can even get in in the first place). At the same time, I love philosophy and all, but I don't want to live in some horrible suburb teaching apathetic students at a community college. presumptuous as it may sounds, these are factors that I feel obligated to consider in pursuing such a competitive life trajectory, which will in all likelihood only intensify in the years to come.

Do either of you know anything about studying outside the US? I realize there are "great schools" (as uselessly vague as this designation is..), but what would a foreign degree practically entail in terms of returning to the U.S. to find work? Any specific schools worth looking into? Superthanks!

[UnbearableNausea]

Do either of you know anything about studying outside the US? I realize there are "great schools" (as uselessly vague as this designation is..), but what would a foreign degree practically entail in terms of returning to the U.S. to find work? Any specific schools worth looking into? Superthanks!

This is definitely a question for your professors, as I don't think anyone on this forum has the knowledge or experience in the job market to even begin to give you anything but conjecture. I know there are top-tier programs that are outside of the U.S. (ANU, Oxford, etc.) but in terms of 'niche' schools where departments vetting you for a job would know about, etc. then I really am not sure. Just a blind guess, but I would say it may be easier to find employment (generally) in Europe in your area of study, especially if you have a degree from a European university. Then again, if you are really after a tenure-track position at a research school then you likely would need a PhD from one of the top 4 or 5 programs. Again, all of this is conjecture and you'd be better off having a frank discussion with your professors about your true interests, your concerns, etc. It is a terrible thing to gamble with 5 -7 years of your life, and even worse to waste it studying at a program you really don't want to be in.

[rainrdx]

In the same boat. I am troubled by the same issue. Although I am not quite doing psychoanalysis or those very French things, I do work very extensively on historicism, social philosophy/social theory, some culture theory and critical theory. I find it so difficult and so, well, not rewarding, to crack into top US programs with such interests. I am thinking about going outside the US (e.g. Germany) too but I don't know a thing about the academic institutions there, the prospect of job or research, etc.

May be we should talk.

[anthropologeist]

I found this old thread after going through the same predicament. I'd like to say that in some of the Ivy schools you'll be able to nurture your interests in continental philosophy (someone from Columbia recently wrote her dissertation on Hegel and got a job...), but have you seen the actual course lists at those schools? They are pretty barren for your interests in the philosophers mentioned above. You have to remember that grad school is what "disciplines" you and significantly shapes your interests (you don't want to constantly be struggling to learn what you want to learn). Continental philosophy is pushed aside at the Ivies/top schools generally because philosophy programs are not the place to do critical theory in the United States. You should consider the placement of the "un-prestigious" schools you mention above. I'd say a good deal of them (particularly Emory, Stony Brook, Vandy, etc.) got tenure-track positions. At the end of the day, the difference between the types of programs is much more stark than what you're making it seem.

[bluecheese]

I think it is worth considering leaning toward places that are a bit more interdisciplinary their approach to continental theory/philosophy. English departments can even be a good place to look--you can still write in highly theoretical and philosophy driven modes (english and literature departments are where continental philosophy found its home in US academic institutions), but you can also spread out to writing about literature and diversify your prospects for employment. Unless you obtain admission at one of the major continental oriented institutions (Chicago, Berkeley, etc.), I think you're better off going somewhere that will give you job opportunities. There aren't enough jobs in continental philosophy. Lots of highly trained and brilliant people are wondering jobless or as adjuncts. It's worth considering.

[Josh J.]

First time I've ever heard Chicago termed an "okay" school!

[Billy Goehring]

Yeah, I like the list of "okay" schools--it's laughable! If you do continental philosophy, those are a few of the great schools. If you look down your nose at places like Emory, Stony Brook, and U Chicago, then maybe you should leave those programs alone--there are plenty of us who would kill to go there. 

[lo.lee.ta]

I think it is worth considering leaning toward places that are a bit more interdisciplinary their approach to continental theory/philosophy. English departments can even be a good place to look--you can still write in highly theoretical and philosophy driven modes (english and literature departments are where continental philosophy found its home in US academic institutions), but you can also spread out to writing about literature and diversify your prospects for employment.

 

Bluecheese (or anyone else who cares to respond): which English Lit. programs do you consider to be especially theory heavy/continentally inclined? I'm a current English PhD applicant, but the thinkers/writers/ideas I'm most interested are not all that popular - if not positively ridiculed - in most English depts. (think Blanchot, Levinas, Agamben, Derrida), and I'm thinking I should reformulate my list in case I have to do this again next year. Any suggestions? Sometimes I wonder if I'm not even in the right discipline...

[Bennett]

Bluecheese (or anyone else who cares to respond): which English Lit. programs do you consider to be especially theory heavy/continentally inclined? I'm a current English PhD applicant, but the thinkers/writers/ideas I'm most interested are not all that popular - if not positively ridiculed - in most English depts. (think Blanchot, Levinas, Agamben, Derrida), and I'm thinking I should reformulate my list in case I have to do this again next year. Any suggestions? Sometimes I wonder if I'm not even in the right discipline...

 

So, I'm comp lit, not English, but my interests trend really heavily towards continental philosophy (in my case mostly Frankfurt School critical theory, aesthetic philosophy, and Kant and Hegel). Have you considered Berkeley Rhetoric, Duke Literature and Stanford's Modern Thought and Literature? All three are pretty heavily theory-oriented and interdisciplinary, and sound like they'd work perfectly with your interests. I'd add in Minnesota's CSDS/CSCL but it looks like you've already applied there.

 

In general, I think Comp Lit departments are more open to "pure" theory than English; the other advantage is that they often get considerably less applicants (I think Duke Lit got around 170 this year; compare to the 500+ for many English programs). Of course many Comp Lit programs have rigorous language requirements, but some--Duke, Minnesota--do not. Anyway, at least based on your list of theorists, I'd suggest that as another possible option.

 

PS - For what it's worth: we all sometimes wonder if we're in the right discipline...

[lo.lee.ta]

So, I'm comp lit, not English, but my interests trend really heavily towards continental philosophy (in my case mostly Frankfurt School critical theory, aesthetic philosophy, and Kant and Hegel). Have you considered Berkeley Rhetoric, Duke Literature and Stanford's Modern Thought and Literature? All three are pretty heavily theory-oriented and interdisciplinary, and sound like they'd work perfectly with your interests. I'd add in Minnesota's CSDS/CSCL but it looks like you've already applied there.

 

In general, I think Comp Lit departments are more open to "pure" theory than English; the other advantage is that they often get considerably less applicants (I think Duke Lit got around 170 this year; compare to the 500+ for many English programs). Of course many Comp Lit programs have rigorous language requirements, but some--Duke, Minnesota--do not. Anyway, at least based on your list of theorists, I'd suggest that as another possible option.

 

PS - For what it's worth: we all sometimes wonder if we're in the right discipline...

 

Thanks Bennet, this is helpful. I did apply to Stanford's MTL this year as well as the English program at UMinn (I'm currently on the waitlist, so fingers are still tightly crossed!), but I didn't apply to/have only recently discovered some of the other programs you mentioned. I never thought of applying to comp. lit. programs, but that sounds like it might be something to consider.

Out of curiosity, are you planning to enter a comp lit. program this fall?

[Bennett]

Thanks Bennet, this is helpful. I did apply to Stanford's MTL this year as well as the English program at UMinn (I'm currently on the waitlist, so fingers are still tightly crossed!), but I didn't apply to/have only recently discovered some of the other programs you mentioned. I never thought of applying to comp. lit. programs, but that sounds like it might be something to consider.

Out of curiosity, are you planning to enter a comp lit. program this fall?

 

Yes. I've had acceptances from Duke (Lit), U Penn (Comp Lit), and Minnesota's Comparative Studies in Discourse and Society, and am in the process of visiting all three schools before making a decision. I actually applied to a mix of comp lit and English programs, and was accepted to 3/4 of my comp programs and 0/3 in English. Not sure if one can extrapolate from that data to assert that comp lit programs are more theory-friendly than English--perhaps it's just a case of my individual background/interests--but it certainly seems plausible.

 

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you for Minnesota! There are some great people there. Timothy Brennan (who teaches in both the English and Comp. Lit departments) is one of my favorite thinkers. (I highly recommend his "Wars of Position," if you haven't read it.) Anyway, great school and great program so I hope it works out.

 

If it doesn't (and I hope it will!) then yeah, I'd recommend thinking about Comp Lit. You could still focus primarily on English literature--most people still choose a "track"--and, insofar as you're working mostly with French theorists, that would already bring in the "comparative" element. Do you speak any other languages? (And, if not, is that something you could work on in this coming year?) Language requirements vary widely from program to program but, for all the ones I've mentioned, a decent intermediate/reading knowledge of one foreign language should be more than enough to get started. 

[lo.lee.ta]

Yes. I've had acceptances from Duke (Lit), U Penn (Comp Lit), and Minnesota's Comparative Studies in Discourse and Society, and am in the process of visiting all three schools before making a decision. I actually applied to a mix of comp lit and English programs, and was accepted to 3/4 of my comp programs and 0/3 in English. Not sure if one can extrapolate from that data to assert that comp lit programs are more theory-friendly than English--perhaps it's just a case of my individual background/interests--but it certainly seems plausible.

 

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you for Minnesota! There are some great people there. Timothy Brennan (who teaches in both the English and Comp. Lit departments) is one of my favorite thinkers. (I highly recommend his "Wars of Position," if you haven't read it.) Anyway, great school and great program so I hope it works out.

 

If it doesn't (and I hope it will!) then yeah, I'd recommend thinking about Comp Lit. You could still focus primarily on English literature--most people still choose a "track"--and, insofar as you're working mostly with French theorists, that would already bring in the "comparative" element. Do you speak any other languages? (And, if not, is that something you could work on in this coming year?) Language requirements vary widely from program to program but, for all the ones I've mentioned, a decent intermediate/reading knowledge of one foreign language should be more than enough to get started. 

Wow, that's awesome, those are all great options! Best of luck with whichever you choose.

I've never read "Wars of Position," but Timmothy Brennan and Tony Brown (not sure if he teaches in CSDS too (?), but he's a big theory guy) were two of my main reasons for applying to UMinn.

I do already speak & read Spanish and am hoping to learn French while in - or perhaps before entering - a program. If it looks like I'll be applying again this fall I may try to do that on my own this summer.