SAIS decisions are out, apparently:

[nouveau.ukiyo]

Hey IR_Lion, I'll try and address a few of your questions.

I'm considering attending SAIS and I've picked the Japan Studies concentration. I don't think you can pick two Asian regional concentrations. But you can get something called a Master of Arts in AsiaIR. How it works is that you initially pick an Asian regional concentration, take 4 classes pertaining to that region, then take 2 Asia classes outside your concentration and take a language test; this fulfills your regional concentration. In my case, I'd take 4 Japan classes and 2 more AsiaIR classes plus a Japanese proficiency test. To fulfill the AsiaIR requirements, I believe you take an additional 2 AsiaIR classes outside your concentration. If you wanted, I believe you could probably take 4 Japan and 4 China Studies classes and that would fulfill the Asia IR requirements.

As for the Nanjing Center, I can't say much since I don't know much about it. But do you think by attending there you could gain something valuable outside of classes? A lot of people say that students at top MBA programs don't learn much; those people are already among the top business leaders in the world, so there isn't much more that they need to learn. So why do they go? Networking. They get to meet other top business leaders and create relationships that will further their career, get them better jobs, etc.

I know the Nanjing Center is a very different program and environment, but I would think you'd be able to meet people there and network. Both Chinese and international students attend, so you could create a pretty geographically wide network.

You didn't mention your goals btw.

And did you get money from SAIS?

[IRToni]

Hi IR_Lion,

first, and don't take this the wrong way, I personally felt put-off by the way you wrote initially. It's not that I don't believe that you're a good student and talented at languages, but really? 99,999% native? You're either native, that is grew up speaking this language or you're not. So your Chinese is awesome. Good for you, doesn't make you native. Also, just because you're good with languages doesn't make you better suited for a graduate program or to do two concentrations, as opposed to everyone else who's only doing one. Languages and thematic courses require completely different skills. All that said, if you're actually fluent in both Chinese and Japanese after only spending a semester each, that is impressive.

Now, to your question: I actually speak Mandarin and decided against the Hopkings-Nanjing center for exactly the reason you stated. I had heard that classes are really watered down etc., esp. the Chinese classes. Since I already attended classes on Chinese politics at a Chinese uni (intended for Chinese students), I felt I didn't really have any business being there. I don't really think you can change now though. I'm sure asking won't hurt, but it's even impossible/almost impessible to change between Bologna and DC and they use the same system (for domestic students). Hopkins-Nanjing is, IMO, a very different campus, the adcom is different and it's supposed to be easier to get into. I believe that your chances of changing are thus very slim. I believe you have three options: 1. Stick it out, go to Nanjing and also attend classes meant for Chinese people (at Nanjing uni, not in the center), do tons of other stuff etc., 2. Reapply to SAIS for 2013, 3. Go with one of your other, very good school options. That said, when trying to talk to them, remember that it's basically your screw-up. To me, you come off with a sense of entitlement online and I believe that this might hurt your chances a lot. Doing research online, going to Nanjing earlier etc. all could have prevented this from happening, so basically, you're a "beggar", begging them to take you even though you applied to another program.

None of this is meant to hurt you and I can imagine that you were very upset when you wrote this, but I honestly felt that your tone was very off (-putting).

[IR_Lion]

Yes I got the The Starr China Knowledge for the World Fellowship and fully covered tuition ! And @IRToni I've had 10 years of Chinese (and working in China with Chinese clients kind of makes you kind of need it) and 7 years of Japanese before going to university and the only reason why I didn't say I'm completely native is that my Chinese scientific terms knowledge is a bit weak. Like I said before its hard for people to believe that a white person can be native in an asian language and I totally get that so I'm not insulted by your attempt to put down my accomplishments. 2nd of all the program is at the SAIS DC campus but the Nanjing program is like a top off. So I'm hoping that they will say fine you can stay for you final semester at SAIS. @ Ukiyo I know its about networking but I've done enough of that in Beijing and want to stay in DC. Oh my goal is to become the next Edwin O. Reischauer =). My biggest treasure are my pictures of me shaking Hu JinTao's hand and one of me shaking Junichi Koizumi's hand. They are framed on my wall with their nation's flags hanging below. I'd love to end up being the ambassador to China or Japan but since the only people that get that are millionaire donors to the president or political allies/compromises I'll take the private route and hope that I'll make enough $$ that when the time comes the democrat I support for president will win xD.

Edited March 25, 2012 by IR_Lion

[MYRNIST]

I'm not sure why a simple question - "hey, I made a poor decision and am looking to get out of it" - necessitated lengthy exposes on the quality of your Mandarin, putting down the Nanjing program, etc. You could do perfect 相声, and it wouldn't change the fact that you didn't adequately research what the program entailed. I'd wager SAIS would feel the same, so I would lose the attitude and humbly beseech them for help.

I'd say IRToni pretty much laid out your options.

Edited March 25, 2012 by MYRNIST

[IRToni]

And @IRToni I've had 10 years of Chinese (and working in China with Chinese clients kind of makes you kind of need it) and 7 years of Japanese before going to university and the only reason why I didn't say I'm completely native is that my Chinese scientific terms knowledge is a bit weak. Like I said before its hard for people to believe that a white person can be native in an asian language and I totally get that so I'm not insulted by your attempt to put down my accomplishments. 2nd of all the program is at the SAIS DC campus but the Nanjing program is like a top off. So I'm hoping that they will say fine you can stay for you final semester at SAIS.

I don't want to turn this into a personal thing, but I do feel like you misunderstood what I said and don't quite understand the term native. Being native is not an accomplishment. You can't learn being "native" after you're 12 or so (some linguists even argue after you're 6). That is why the definition of "native language" is "he language that a person has spoken from earliest childhood". So there's no 99,999% native. Either you grew up with Mandarin, which would make your "accomplishments" smaller or you didn't and are highly fluent, highly profficient or whatever in Mandarin, which is a huge accomplishment. That said, I agree a 100% with what MYRNIST said. You can only hope for the best, but if you're dead-set on not going to Nanjing, you might want to talk to SAIS about it before attending, so there won't be bad surprises in a year or so.

Also, you could really stand to loose some of your attitude. Other people have accomplished great things, too, and not everyone criticizing your word choice is jealous/can't wrap their head around Western people speeking awesome Chinese, so that you hardly even hear a difference. As a matter of fact, I know some that speak really good Chinese and started learning it at 20 or so, so it is possible. I would honestly be interested in where and why you learned both Japanese and Chinese for such a long time before attending uni.

Enough with that.

Back to the money thing (and me): I'm honestly not sure I would attend SAIS this year if I can't defer it. I have other, free options and I'm not sure SAIS is worth 70k in debt. Hard decision. I'm also still waiting on SIPA and Oxford, but not betting on getting much money from either school...

[IR_Lion]

My stepmother is Japanese and she started teaching me Japanese after she married my Dad. They met when my dad worked at the US embassy in Japan years ago and they reconnected when she moved to DC to work at the Japanese embassy there and then got married. She is an awesome person but drove me crazy a bit when she decided to redecorate the house to make it more "Japanese" for her. She started to speak only in Japanese to me because I think she wanted to hear her mother tongue at home. Chinese wise..... when I was much younger I enrolled in one of the local afterschool "chinese" schools for Chinese kids whose parents want them to maintain their culture and language.

Well I'm biased towards SAIS, I was willing to go completely into debt to go there, when I got the email I had my fiancee read it to me and when she shouted I got the tuition covered I honestly just broke down, called both my parents and my entire family and she did the same thing (she is half taiwanese half japanese and her parents weren't too thrilled about her moving with me to China for a year and taking a year off from her job in DC. We have been together for 6 years 2 of those long distance and she said she would come with me to China to avoid another year of long distance). I just received an email from a SAIS admissions officer that I built a really good relationship with.....OMG I CAN STAY FOR A 4th SEMESTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone in the China studies department I'll see you guys there!!! I am soooooooo relieved. 谢天谢地 上天你真的眷顾我！！！！！！！I'm now going to catch the amtrak down to DC. See my gal and go see SAIS with her knowing this is gonna be my home for 2 years!!!

Edited March 25, 2012 by IR_Lion

[IRToni]

IR_Lion: Great it worked out for you. The language thing is super interesting, you're quite blessed having had the opportunity to do so many things. I hope you'll enjoy SAIS and maybe we'll actually meet there.

BTW, I'm international, so I was thinking of applying to fellowships from my country. There are three big fellowships my country offers for people doing graduate studies in the US (incl. Fulbright, of course).

[charlotte_asia]

How is everyone feeling about SAIS these days?

While I spent the two weeks after my acceptance leaning towards SAIS, I am now moving back towards Georgetown. I feel my initial inclinations towards SAIS were its marketability and career services, two things I think would have only marginally better (if any better) pull than Georgetown. I am not in the finance/consulting/private sector industries and I'm just not sure that SAIS's services for folks not in those fields are any better than Georgetown's.

In addition, while I would like to deepen my quantitative analysis classes, I am not sure I want to spend 25% of my classes on micro, trade, etc. I haven't ruled it out, but I am certainly hesitating a bit about it.

I have spoken with many alums and current students from SAIS, and a few from Georgetown, and SAIS gets high marks from everyone. Still, several have said to me recently I really should just go where I want to go and not worry so much about marketability, name of degree, etc. Success after grad school, they have said, is more dependent on the individual rather than the school/program.

(I should note that the Georgetown program I am considering is in the Dept of Government, not SFS)

All that said, there are still three more weeks before I have to decide and I imagine I'll go back and forth again multiple times before then....

[rose1]

I feel like I'm at the point where I've done everything I can to research each school. I'm suspending all deliberation until new information becomes available (financial aid info, decision from Georgetown, I visit each school for open house, etc.) I just need to take a step back and let things percolate for a little while.

[nouveau.ukiyo]

^^ I am faced with the same dilemma as charlotte_asia i.e. SAIS vs. SFS. For the past week, I've been partial to SAIS because it has stronger Asia/Japan connections. But my goal has always been public service and it would seem that Georgetown is the best choice in this regard.

[IR_Lion]

I think SFS is more of a feeder school for the American foreign service from what I hear. SAIS is as well but it has more of an international flare, you have nations from around the world send their people there, for all those interested in Japan its almost like there is a clique for LDP high powered officials that are SAIS graduates (Former PM Nakasone for example) and relations like that can go a long way. At least in Asia SAIS is the most recognized IR school brand. SFS is still the magnet school for the rank and file American diplomat but at least for Asia SAIS wins hands down.

By any chance does anyone know if they still teach Burmese at SAIS?? Its the only SEA language that is a closed link.

Edited March 26, 2012 by IR_Lion

[msal]

I see that we have some IR experts here and I would like to ask them a question. How do you compare the quality of education in SAIS and SIPA, in terms of giving a strong insight on foreign policy making of the US and also the international policy making processes. I am less interested in the reputation (and as far as I know these two schools have almost equal reputation) but I am more interested in the quality and experience of professors, and the content of the courses. I know most of these can be found from the websites but I would like to hear your opinions.

[nouveau.ukiyo]

I've heard the same things about both schools. But Georgetown is always considered a top IR school, if not the best. If their graduates are so one dimensional and go on to do the same/similar things, why are they considered the best?

If I go to SAIS, I'd have to start at Bologna. Unfortunately, they have only 1 or 2 Asia-related classes!

[nouveau.ukiyo]

msal, I found some lectures/talks, etc. by professors at both schools on Youtube.

[grtheman]

Just turned down Georgetown today, purely out of financial considerations, though. I also get the sense that SAIS is much stronger when it comes to Asia studies.

[tingschu]

I have been following this thread and seldom talk, but this theme keeps coming out and I just have to voice out: "SAIS is famous in Asia, really?! really?!"

I guess from what I saw here, "SAIS or even JHU is famous all over Asia", except for southern China, especially Hong Kong. I mean when I tell people that I got into JHU here in HK, they are like, " John what?!" This kinda convinces me to take the Chicago offer...at least they know Univ. of Chicago...

so sad...

Edited March 26, 2012 by tingschu

[IR_Lion]

@ Tingschu what people in HK do you talk to? Yes the normal HK citizen won't know JHU but the upper echelons of course will. And its the upper echelons that matter. I went to a JHU alumni gathering last time I visited HK to network with some HK SAIS people and there was the president of I-Banking at the Bank of China international there as well as a bunch of really high level personnel from HK government and business it seemed. Also HK in general seems to have a british education bias. One of my classmates did his masters at CASS last year and when he went to HK for job hunting he was pummeled with offers while when he tried to go back to America all he got were raised eyebrows.

The reason why Georgetown is so famous is they are good at what they do. Their job was originally pumping out talented qualified diplomats for the American diplomatic corps and they have done that. Out of all the top 3 Ir schools (SAIS, Tufts, SFS) SAIS is the one that I feel is the least american centric of them. As in the people going there aren't gunning for a place in the US government.

Edited March 26, 2012 by IR_Lion

[gzdzcca]

I have been following this thread and seldom talk, but this theme keeps coming out and I just have to voice out: "SAIS is famous in Asia, really?! really?!"

I guess from what I saw here, "SAIS or even JHU is famous all over Asia", except for southern China, especially Hong Kong. I mean when I tell people that I got into JHU here in HK, they are like, " John what?!" This kinda convinces me to take the Chicago offer...at least they know Univ. of Chicago...

so sad...

+1

But I agree with IR_Lion

JHU might not be much famous in HK or China, but at least in the IR field SAIS has a great reputation even in HK, Taiwan or China.

Edited March 27, 2012 by gzdzcca

[charlotte_asia]

rose, I wish I could channel your zen about letting things percolate for a few weeks and wait until all financial info is in. I am leaning towards Georgetown right now and hope that Gtown can send a little bit of money my way in the next week or two to solidify things. We'll see

I would love to hear about the open house in a few weeks if anyone plans on going?

[nouveau.ukiyo]

Some of the top schools schools don't have widespread international brand recognition. If that means something to you, by all means get into the brand name of your choice. However, the top IR schools are well-known in their field worldwide, which is what matters when you are looking for IR jobs in the private sector at least (which is where I gather many people worried about brand name want to work, in which case why not get an MBA?). All the schools provide great education and will prepare you for your ideal career me thinks. Not famous does not equal bad school.

And as many said here, the school name might only mean something initially after graduation and during your career's formative years. Eventually, your resume, skills, network, etc. will carry vastly more weight than where you graduated.

As for SFS's reputation, I'm not buying the argument many people present here. I participated in an online chat today; they said last year they had maybe 4 students become FSOs, perhaps a few more have joined them since graduation. The school's employment stats say that of the 2011 class, 39% went into the public sector, which includes foreign governments and multi-laterals, with the rest distributed among the private and non-profit sectors. So it's hardly a US government employment machine. In fact, I think SFS's numbers are similar to SAIS.

Edited March 27, 2012 by nouveau.ukiyo

[tingschu]

@ IR Lion-- You were right, when I said HK people, I meant the majority middle class, not the elites. In fact, if you were talking about elites, I bet they not only know about JHU, some less well-known ones, like WUSTL would make the list as well, as this group of people are usually more connected and knowledgeable. In fact, most top HK government officials are Harvard-educated, instead of SAIS, but I bet there are SAIS alumni here working for the government as well. It is just that, it is less common to see SAIS grads active in high ranking government posts--no indication on the quality of SAIS, just purely the size of alumni base and brand name. (And HK indeed has this UK education bias thing going on for years, which I find upsetting myself.)

@gzdzcca & nouveau.ukiyo - Thanks for reminding me of the reputation within IR sector. I guess when it comes to looking for the first ideal job after graduation, connections and reputation within the industry matters more than the overall brand name of a university. I will factor that in when I make a final decision. I am trying to ask SAIS admissions office to find me an IDEV MA candidate to talk to me.

If any of you here go to SAIS open house, will you guys please share the information and impression that you have on SAIS? For those who are in the other end of the world, your first-hand impression is very valuable to us. As for me, I haven't made up my mind which school to attend yet, but if we all end up attending SAIS in DC this fall, we should at least have a gradcafe happy hour gathering, heheh. Cheers!

Edited March 27, 2012 by tingschu

[yo_yo86]

I see that we have some IR experts here and I would like to ask them a question. How do you compare the quality of education in SAIS and SIPA, in terms of giving a strong insight on foreign policy making of the US and also the international policy making processes. I am less interested in the reputation (and as far as I know these two schools have almost equal reputation) but I am more interested in the quality and experience of professors, and the content of the courses. I know most of these can be found from the websites but I would like to hear your opinions.

Purely anecdotal, and though I mentioned it on one of these threads already, I knew a large number of SIPA students and grads while living in NYC. Most seemed to be slightly disappointment with the program overall. There were lots of positives (there are some well-known professors and interesting classes), yet most people were displeased by the administration, lack of financial aid, career services, and impersonal feel. The fewer number of SAIS grads I knew raved about their school. Not a perfect comparison, but important in my book.

However, assuming both schools are in fact equal in terms of education provided, and at the risk of stating the obvious, location is another important factor to consider. Depending on what you want to do, location should make a big difference in your decision. If you're interested in going the finance route, while SAIS has a good economics reputation, I would venture that SIPA would likely have more connections in NYC, the center for such work. However, if you're interested in government work then SAIS is the logical choice, as you can easily get valuable internships while in school, which simply isn't an option if you attend SIPA.

[IR_Lion]

I have to agree with yo_yo, I have come across plenty of SIPA grads in NYC and they tend to grumble when it comes to SIPA. Mainly they complain that the school seems like an afterthought to Bollinger's grand schemes for Columbia such as relying on the other divisions of Columbia to buttress the school instead of giving the school room to grow into its own. A pretty damn good example is the fact that if you want to study Asia at SIPA its basically through the weatherhead institute in Columbia College, instead of allowing SIPA the ability to establish its own centers that could cooperate with weatherhead the university tends to basically tell SIPA to latch on to everything the school's good at and no need to do anything on its own which is a damn shame. From what I know SIPA is great for international finance but thats mainly cause the people I met that had the most positive things to say did that focus.

[msal]

yo_yo and IRLion, thank you guys for sharing. this is my expression too about the SIPA, that I got from this forum. I think SIPA mostly depends on the Columbia name and the advantage of NYC, so does not feel obliged towards the students. SAIS provides more attention and intimacy.

[cali]

Did anybody happen to catch the online chat this morning? Was there anything interesting mentioned (i.e. not already on their website)?