Harvard NELC

[mimiuchi]

Hello,

I'm driving myself crazy trying to decide between NELC PhD offers from Chicago, Princeton and Harvard. I think i have the inside scoop on Chicago and Princeton, but Harvard is a big question mark. I am getting the feeling that Harvard NELC doesn't have the best reputation. Can anyone shed some light on why this might be?

regards,

mimiuchi

[dltwlf18]

I got accepted into the MA program at Harvard but a professor at the school I am currently attending told me that due to some recent retirements that Harvard just doesn't have the draw that it once did. This professor recommended Chicago and UT Austin to me over Harvard.

[Salik]

Dear Mimiuchi,

Could you tell us what your field is in NELC? Egyptology, Assyriology, Early Islamic, Other? Without that information, it is hard to advise you. Congrats on having such a fine selection though. Would you be willing to share your profile/stats?

Best

[mimiuchi]

Dear Salik,

I'm interested in Islamic thought, specifically the premodern legal tradition.

Sure i don't mind sharing, but what do you mean by profile/stats?

mimuchi

[samarkand]

Harvard is a great place to pursue graduate studies in Islamic studies for a number of reasons. First off, three preeminent and well-cultivated professors are here teaching in the field you're interested in - Baber Johansen, Shahab Ahmed and Khaled el-Rouayheb. In addition there are a number of other professors both at Harvard and at surrounding schools that can aid your work although their research isn't directly or fully related. Secondly, Harvard's resources are unmatched by any school. This is known - books, manuscripts, money, etc are overwhelmingly present here in a capacity that no other school provides. Thirdly, Harvard's name holds a huge weight. In the future when you're applying to jobs it's possible that the name alone will get you into places. That's not to say that research, publications, etc aren't important. They are very important of course, but graduating from Harvard will likely have a great impact on your job prospects. Fourthly, the intellectual milieu here is awesome - visiting professors constantly in and out, ten plus lectures a day in your field and others, very bright students, etc. All in all, Harvard is a great place to pursue NELC graduate studies. If you have specific questions please do ask.

[Salik]

Dear Mimiuchi,

I would second everything Samarkand has said. Reputation, prestige, financial resources and support, library collections, indeed Harvard does seem to have it all. More importantly, I have no doubt that it is the best for the area you are interested in. The only person in Chicago in Islamic law is Ahmad al-Shamsy who very recently finished his PhD from Harvard. His dissertation was very good and I am sure that he will bloom into a fine scholar, but I would recommend that you be trained by someone more senior. Stanford only allows tenured professors to take on PhD students, I don't know what Chicago's policy is. I was a NELC undergrad at Chicago and no doubt the reputation of Chicago is very strong and it has produced many graduates who have blossomed in Islamic law (Katz-NYU, Fadel-Toronto), but their Islamic thought and history is pretty slim now, only Donner and Shamsy.

Princeton: If Cook is not retiring, then it would be a great opportunity to work under him. Although Islamic law is not his particular specialty, he is an excellent supervisor. And Aron Zysow is excellent in both usul and fiqh, though less so in legal history, and he is around the area (at the IAS or even at Princeton). Modarressi is overrated, as are Haykel and Zaman.

Harvard: Johansen is top-notch and although he seems overcommitted at the moment as well as sidestepping into less academic interests, if you can get him interested in your particular dissertation proposal, I think he would be the best supervisor for what you want to do. Shahab is again overrated, Mottahedeh is good in history, and Heinrichs has a passing interest in usul, and is very good in grammar and literature. Moreover, Harvard's ILSP and their joint History and Middle Eastern Studies PhD show that they are strongly committed to law and the history of law and legal theory.

In sum, if I were in your place, I would without a doubt choose Harvard. Princeton's reputation is earned not on merit but on elitism. And Chicago's reputation is legendary, but no longer applicable in what you want to do.

All of this is if you are very sure that what you want to do is Islamic legal thought.

Lastly, I was curious as to where you studied undergrad, what professors you worked with, and your level of Arabic.

[mimiuchi]

Dear Salik and Samarkand,

Thank you both very much for the info, it was very useful. Between the info you provided and my other consultations with current students and alumni and all three schools, I am strongly leaning towards Harvard. However I still have a few questions -

@Samarkand: are you currently at Harvard? what department/program?

@Salik: I just inboxed you my answers to your questions about my background. And if i could trouble further, I also inboxed you some foliow-up questions along with my email address since it may be more appropriate to move this discussion offline given that it involves discussion of certain professors etc.

I did want to mention that Cook and Modaressi are still at Princeton (they are alternating for sabbaticals over the next two years) and retirement is somewhere on the horizon, but nothing official yet. I've been told by current students though that Cook tends to defer to Modaressi and/or Zaman when it comes to law. from my research and consultations, i do feel that Princeton's program is a little 'lightweight' compared to the other two. The course work is only 2 years and 3 courses/semester (compare to 3 years at Chicago where they have 3 quarters, 3 courses/quarter or Harvard, 2 semesters and 4 courses/semester). Plus no teaching obligations at Princeton and the exams are also said to be fewer and less intense. So i don't know what the hype around Princeton is about, maybe just elitism as you mentioned?

As for Chicago, yes, El Shamsy and Donner are the main Islamic thought people there, but Frank LEwis and Qutbuddin seem to dabble in history and thought as well. But i don't know that i would say that the program was legendary and is no longer so... i mean back in the day, they only had Wadad Kadi instead of El Shamsy, so i don't think the department/faculty changed a whole lot, did it?

Lastly - apparently Aron Zysow is actually at Harvard currently. From what i've been able to gather, he's been a visiting fellow with the legal studies program for the past few years. he was teaching also a few years back, but doesn't appear to be anymore. I need to find out more about whether he is accessible as a resource at Harvard or not. That would be the cherry on top

much obliged,

mimiuchi.

[samarkand]

Mimuichi,

The truth is that whatever choice you make will be a good one. Princeton is fantastic for several reasons - three hour long seminars (yes, this is a good thing), the way the library is organized (specifically Islamic studies books - most are on the shelf, unlike at Harvard, where most are in the depository), faculty, no teaching requirements (you can focus on research and teach on the side if you'd like), etc. These are all major positives and I would encourage you to take Princeton seriously.

As for Harvard, it's a great institution to be at, for all the reasons mentioned in my previous post. Don't fret too much about advisors - the reality is that much of the work will be done on your own wherever you go anyway, your advisor is there just to guide you, and at all three institutions you will likely work with several figures, although one will eventually be classified as your 'primary advisor' for administrative purposes. Islamic studies is peculiar in that regards - there is no one professor that can offer you all you need in terms of training because its such a variegated and vast field, that in order to get general training in Islamic studies you will necessarily have to work with several people.

If I were you I would be choosing between Princeton and Harvard. There are pros and cons to each, but your choice will likely depend on what exactly you're looking for - not in terms of advisor, but general training (each school has a particular inclination as I'm sure you've realized) and desired lifestyle.

If you have more questions, please feel free to message me.

[samarkand]

By the way, you shouldn't compare Shamsy to Kadi. Sure it's one human for another - but Shamsy is just starting out whereas Kadi had years and years of experience and formed the program as it now exists at Chicago. It's not about the number of people that can aid your work (although that's important too) but about how much each individual encompasses in terms of knowledge and experience.

Edited March 30, 2012 by samarkand

[samarkand]

Also note that Harvard's coursework is 2 years 4 courses a semester. Most students continue to take or audit courses after the first two years. Princeton's program is not lightweight IMO. Just look at the people who've graduated from Princeton NELC in the past 10 years and what they're doing.

[riverguide]

I would welcome any advice on the competitiveness of my profile. I am currently considering SAIS, Georgetown, UT Austin and Harvard's program. I am interested in their Middle Eastern studies graduate programs with a contempory ME perspective. My career goal is to work for the Federal Government. I'm taking an intense GRE prep course in DC now. My existing stats are:

University of Kentucky International Relations (MENA concentration)/Arabic Languages double major with an Islamic Studies minor (3.82 GPA)

Boren Scholar in the Middle East;

Islamic Scholar in my program with Scholarship;

Two years abroad at Middlebury, AMIDEAST, AUB, Saifi, Yarmouk/CET (Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan);

Two summer sessions at The London School of Economics;

Middlebury 8 week Intensive Arabic Program at Mills;

Paid staffer for US Senator (DC) in the summer (Intern coordinator and Military/Foreign Affairs);

OPI Advanced in Arabic (Egyptian Arabic, Lebanese Arabic, Jordanian Arabic, Urban Arabic, MSA);

University Academic Excellence Award in French.

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Edited August 4, 2012 by riverguide

[Diapason]

This reply is about a year late, but here it is for whatever it is worth. My experience is with the Near Eastern Languages department at Harvard. Though many of the 'luminaries' of the past are now gone, don't underestimate Heinrichs. He is a giant in the field. His credentials are impeccable, as is his Arabic - his knowledge of Arabic is, quite simply, unsurpassed. He has directed many dissertations over a wide range of fields and subfields - though not the main advisor (Mahdi was), Heinrichs was one of the readers on Zysow's dissertation. He is an extraordinarily scrupulous principal advisor (and as a reader, as well), and little things (and things not so little) that will slip past any other advisor are unlikely to get past him. Though rather self-deprecating, he is, without question, a polymath. As for having a 'passing interest' in usul al-fiqh, it is perhaps worth noting, here, that his habilitationschrift (the dissertation submitted for the second doctorate in the German system) was on that very subject. Though he is most often associated with the field of classical Arabic literary theory, it is perhaps worth noting also that there are many points of intersection between Arabic literary theory and Islamic legal theory (most of the classcical literary theorists were also jurists or legal theorists, and their interest in literary theory was not just a passing one).