Eng vs. Comp Lit Programs

[andie45]

I'm currently an English undergrad at a top LA college, and want to pursue graduate study in either English or Comp Lit. From what I understand, it seems that CL is much more competitive, especially if you are not a major. My concern is that doing a general English program will not allow me to do interdisciplinary work. I'm a junior and only realized this year that I am more interested in CL. I have two foreign languages, and plan to have a third by the time I graduate, but I'm not sure that this will allow me to compete with CL majors. I also read somewhere that graduate schools look at upper level foreign language classes to assess your language skills, but I'm not sure if that's true--if not, how DO they assess these skills (recs, etc?).

My senior thesis will be on translation, and my main concentration is poetry, especially modern and contemporary. I'm also a philosophy minor, and am interested in phil and lit. Does anyone know any English programs that allow interdisciplinary work? I've researched MA programs in the UK, and Cambridge has a Culture and Criticism MA that advertises an interdisciplinary focus. Dartmouth also has a CL MA, but I can't find any info about its reputation (I know unfunded MAs in the U.S. are not well regarded).

My other concern is that my school's dept does not have a very structured major that requires you to take a very many specific courses, or courses in historical sequence. Do you think this will hurt my chances of being accepted to a more traditional Eng program? I've realized that my course selection probably looks very scattered (with the exception of a clear interest in poetry). Are there any courses that I should definitely take for grad school (i.e. Lit Crit)?

Sry for the long post, but I want to plan accordingly for my senior courses!

[Fiona Thunderpaws]

Hey there Andie! I'm a straight up English lit person, so I can't answer your specifics about Comp Lit programs, there's actually quite a few English programs that encourage interdisciplinary work--UT Austin and Pittsburgh come to mind, and I'm sure there's plenty more.

Language requirements differ from school to school, so it's hard to get a broad idea of what schools want. But I think the fact that you'll have studied three as an undergrad will only enhance your application!

My undergrad university had an extremely unstructured major as well, but I don't think it was an issue for my applications. Instead of taking required courses, I was able to focus on classes that built my individual interests, and knowing what I wanted to study was definitely a plus for my SOP. I don't think I would have been able to pin my exact interests if I hadn't been given the freedom to discover them on my own. Again, it's hard to know exactly what programs want in a general sense, but while some may favour a broader knowledge of literature, they all want you to have specific interests, so keep that in mind!

[Stately Plump]

I believe that many comp lit programs expect you to be fluent in your other languages. You will be expected to take courses in that language from your first semester. For example, if you are doing Russian and English literature, you will take a course in Russian literature and read those texts in the original Russian--not in translation--from the very beginning. I had been considering comp lit, but when I looked into the expectations, I realized I wasn't prepared for that at all.

As for interdisciplinary work within English, I think you'll find that almost every department strongly encourages it. As graduate students face an increasingly difficult job market, many departments are considering unique and alternative ways to help their graduate students stand out, and this often includes doing interdisciplinary work. I majored in Sociology and English, and when I mentioned this to one of my prospective graduate programs, the professor got really excited, told me how she started with an interest in poli sci, and mentioned that she thought that would give me some great opportunities.

With translation in particular, there is always new work being done translating texts. I know you mention that your particular interests are in contemporary poetry, but as a prospective early modernist, I know that there are some particularly interesting texts from the Renaissance that have hitherto gone untranslated, which can make for an extremely interesting thesis/dissertation project. My advisor transcribed a bunch of letters written in the early modern hand (unaccessible to someone not trained in Renaissance penmanship) and included these letters in her first book. I would think that similar things are being done with more contemporary work. So I would say yes, there is definitely room for translation-type work to be done.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Stately Plump

[Stately Plump]

Are there any courses that I should definitely take for grad school (i.e. Lit Crit)?

Sry for the long post, but I want to plan accordingly for my senior courses!

I know I just posted, but I also wanted to say that lit crit would be very helpful in applying to grad schools. Grad programs are much more theory intensive than undergrad, and going into graduate school with an introduction to different theoretical approaches will definitely be beneficial. If you can frame your research interests within theoretical interests, particularly those that the various programs are interested in, you will give yourself a leg up in the application process.

[andie45]

Thanks so much! These responses have been very helpful. I am also seriously considering doing master's level work in the UK, and possibly continuing there for the PhD. Is it true that if I wish to continue my studies in the U.S. that I'll have difficulty getting into a program? What are the main pros/cons of graduate work in the UK vs. the U.S.? Also, does anyone have any experience with UK programs? thanks!!

[Whylion]

Pretty sure the Darthmouth masters comp lit program is funded. Might be a good choice as it is a very good program.

[Stately Plump]

Thanks so much! These responses have been very helpful. I am also seriously considering doing master's level work in the UK, and possibly continuing there for the PhD. Is it true that if I wish to continue my studies in the U.S. that I'll have difficulty getting into a program? What are the main pros/cons of graduate work in the UK vs. the U.S.?

The main con of graduate work in the UK is that teaching opportunities are extremely limited, which, in turn, limits your chances of getting a job upon graduating. I don't have experience with their system, but perhaps others can speak more to that. Teaching, for me, is a huge concern, because--while I would love a job at a research university--ultimately I just want to be able to support my family. I don't want to approach the job market with any disadvantages (i.e., not having teaching experience as a graduate student).

[rems]

Thanks so much! These responses have been very helpful. I am also seriously considering doing master's level work in the UK, and possibly continuing there for the PhD. Is it true that if I wish to continue my studies in the U.S. that I'll have difficulty getting into a program? What are the main pros/cons of graduate work in the UK vs. the U.S.? Also, does anyone have any experience with UK programs? thanks!!

One of my professors received her M.A. from an UK program, and she said that when she applied for PhD's in the USA she was at a disadvantage because the ad coms can't read an UK transcript. Sounds like a stupid problem, I know, but she said that the only reason she got into her program was because there was a British prof on her ad comm who could "translate" what her transcript said. I don't think this is something to totally worry about, but she just told me this yesterday, and your question seemed interesting in regard to it.

She also claims that her M.A. in England was amazing and she's always pushing me to pursue programs overseas. All things considered, I would go for it!

Other than that, I looked extensively into Irish programs (Joycean) for my M.A. and from what I read (not an expert, just a report) it can be hard to transition from US to UK schools bc UK graduate programs expect you to have an extensive background in philosophical, political, and literary theory when you walk in the door (bc their undergrads do), so some American students I had contacted asking for advice said that they came into the programs VERY under prepared bc the profs will talk about Hegel like he's your best friend and you'll spend a lot of time on wikipedia trying to figure out what that guy said. But they all said this shouldn't stop you from applying -- it will just make it a little harder when you first get there.

And then there's the issue of funding. They don't hand out student loans in the UK like they do over here, so it can be hard to find money to go. Also, I had read that after the 2008 credit crash American banks aren't willing to send their money overseas to support you either. In fact, there were numerous students studying overseas that I heard about who had to come home bc their funding fell through last minute. I'm not experienced nor an expert in this field, this is just what I heard through the grapevine.

BUT UK programs (and Irish) are shorter (you go year round), more research based (so you don't have to take, say, ENGL687 -- Whitman Across the Ages, if you're not an American scholar), and you come back to the states with like instant "street cred" bc you studied abroad.

If you get into a good program over seas, I would go for it.

[generic31290]

Regarding language proficiency for comparative literature programs: most programs will want you to have a primary foreign language and one or two secondary foreign languages. For the primary foreign language, the best evidence of preparedness is having already done course work (preferably graduate-level) in the language. For the secondary languages, all you need at the time of application is reading ability.

Comp lit programs receive fewer applicants per spot than English programs do, which might suggest that English is more competitive. However, there is a self-selecting process. Per my experience, comp lit applicants are less likely to be coming straight from undergrad.

Edited March 29, 2012 by yxnstat

[andie45]

Thanks, Why Lion. Do you have any more specific info on Dartmouth's program? What about Boston College's English MA?

Stately Plump: Do you mean that it is much harder to find a job at a research university in the UK, or only in the US? Right now I am more interested in research than teaching, which is why I ask.

rems: your responses were really informative. I've definitely noticed UK programs' expectations for theoretical background, which I admit does intimidate me quite a bit. The University of Edinburgh has a taught MSc in Literature and Modernity that looks like it is less focused on theory. Does anyone know about this program (or Edinburgh)? Also, what is the difference between UK "taught" vs. "research" programs?

Oh, and what do you mean by "instant street cred?" (among peers, or adcoms?)

[andie45]

yxnstat: your comment about comp lit students not coming straight from undergrad is really interesting, and actually makes sense. I attend a LAC, so I haven't been able to take any graduate level language courses, but I have taken upper-level literature courses in both of my FLs (1 course in each--I'd like to take more, but I'm having a hard time fitting in more with my other requirements.

I do have a more general application question. How do adcoms look upon gaps in your undergrad education? I transferred, and took two semesters off (non-consecutively), and was wondering if this will negatively impact my applications. Should I include a brief statement regarding these gaps? I also have the opportunity to graduate a semester later (in fall 2013, as opposed to spring). Would it be unfavorable if I took the extra semester, given that I already have several gaps in my record? Or would it be beneficial to use the extra time to take more classes, gain more language experience, and further develop my interests? I also plan to travel/teach abroad the year following graduation, and was wondering how this might help/hinder (or have no impact at all!) on my application.

Thanks for everyone's insightful comments!

[rems]

Thanks, Why Lion. Do you have any more specific info on Dartmouth's program? What about Boston College's English MA?

Stately Plump: Do you mean that it is much harder to find a job at a research university in the UK, or only in the US? Right now I am more interested in research than teaching, which is why I ask.

rems: your responses were really informative. I've definitely noticed UK programs' expectations for theoretical background, which I admit does intimidate me quite a bit. The University of Edinburgh has a taught MSc in Literature and Modernity that looks like it is less focused on theory. Does anyone know about this program (or Edinburgh)? Also, what is the difference between UK "taught" vs. "research" programs?

Oh, and what do you mean by "instant street cred?" (among peers, or adcoms?)

Oh sorry! I meant among peers. I can't attest to your "street cred" with ad coms regarding time spent overseas.

[andie45]

rems: haha, okay thanks!

[Stately Plump]

Stately Plump: Do you mean that it is much harder to find a job at a research university in the UK, or only in the US? Right now I am more interested in research than teaching, which is why I ask.

It's almost impossibly difficult to find a job at a research university in either the UK or the US. And when I say impossibly difficult, what I mean is that almost all of us will not get those jobs. For evidence look at some top programs' placement rates; while there are some research universities on there, most of them are small-midsize schools where the faculty members are primarily teachers. R1 positions happen, but I wouldn't count on it.

What I meant was that, with the realities of the job market, I have heard that some students who attend schools in the UK graduate with no teaching experience, which means they can't get a job at a small or midsize school, because those schools are concerned with the applicant's preparation as a teacher. I don't know this from my own experience, but I have heard it. And then, of course, even if you get a job at a research university, you will still have to do some teaching for your first few years.

My impression is that going to school in the UK will definitely prepare you to remain in the UK, but you may have a tougher time getting a job in the US (not because their programs are worse--many of them are far better--but because their system is different). Spots are so tight that schools want to select the professor they think will be the best fit for their department. If they have any suspicion that they may be selecting a faculty member who won't be familiar with their system, that may be a disadvantage to you. Additionally, if you are prepared primarily for a job in the UK, that seriously limits the places to which you might apply (i.e., all the schools in the US).

Again, take all of this with a grain of salt. I'm only relaying other things I've heard elsewhere. Getting a degree in the UK would be a phenomenal experience, and I'm sure the quality of education would be superb. And I'm only trying to offer some thoughts; I don't, by any means, wish to persuade people one way or the other

[andie45]

Again, take all of this with a grain of salt. I'm only relaying other things I've heard elsewhere. Getting a degree in the UK would be a phenomenal experience, and I'm sure the quality of education would be superb. And I'm only trying to offer some thoughts; I don't, by any means, wish to persuade people one way or the other

^^I didn't feel you were trying to persuade me at all--I appreciate the honesty! I am new to this whole process, so any additional knowledge will allow me to make more informed decisions!

Also, if you are accepted to a terminal MA program, can you defer enrollment for a year? I ask because I will also be applying to fellowships , and should I be offered one, will postpone grad school until the following year. I also think it might be easier to apply for fellowships and grad school at the same time.

[Stately Plump]

Also, if you are accepted to a terminal MA program, can you defer enrollment for a year? I ask because I will also be applying to fellowships , and should I be offered one, will postpone grad school until the following year. I also think it might be easier to apply for fellowships and grad school at the same time.

Whether you can defer is up to the school. I had a similar question, because I was applying to both schools and fellowships, and I got varied responses from different schools. Some said it would be no problem, others said no, and others weren't sure but thought it would be fine.

Ask the departments where you've applied, and they will be able to give you more information.

[andie45]

Thanks so much for all of the helpful responses! Another question: how much does age play a role in admissions? (i.e. if you are in your late 20's when applying to PhD programs).

[lyonessrampant]

Well, that's about where I was when applying and I think it was a disadvantage because there was a fairly large gap between my MA and Ph.D. If you can keep taking classes or something that might help. More importantly, being able to show continuing connections to your field is important. As for CL for English, I considered that route, but language proficiency held me back, sadly. If your language skills are strong, I'd say go for it. The statistics are technically better for admission to CL than English, simply in terms of number of applying, but neither is "easier" to get in to. CL also tends to be a lot more theory heavy across the board (another reason I wanted to go that route), so if you don't have much theory, you should get it. As for interdisciplinary English programs, there are tons and tons. All the ones I applied to support interdisciplinarity. Here are a few: Minnesota, Stanford, Berkeley, Texas, Colorado, Oregon, Chicago, and Utah (just to name a few). Good luck to you!

[andie45]

lyonessrampant: Would the age factor be a disadvantage if you started your MA later, but applied to PhD programs immediately after? Is the number of years spent outside of academia more of an issue than age per se? Thanks!

[Stately Plump]

lyonessrampant: Would the age factor be a disadvantage if you started your MA later, but applied to PhD programs immediately after? Is the number of years spent outside of academia more of an issue than age per se? Thanks!

I don't believe age has any bearing whatever on admission to PhD programs. Many people "start late." And if you are talking about "late 20s," that's not actually "late" at all (I'm pretty sure the average age for someone in a humanities PhD program is early 30s, but I could be wrong).

[andie45]

thanks so much!

[nada.am]

Just to add to some of the US v. UK discussion... I'm applying to Phd programs this year and finished an MA in the UK last year. For me it was a really worthwhile experience that helped clarify my interests a lot and gave me a lot of great research experience. UK programs give you a lot more independence than US programs and, at least in my experience, you are very much on your own to develop and carry out your research. On the one hand this is great practice and you learn a lot, but on the other hand I think it's harder to really find a mentor and establish a close relationship with them. For example my dissertation advisor was not allowed to read my dissertation to give me feedback on it...so obviously I think my letters of rec might be hurt a little bit by this. Also, the grading system is quite different, so I'm not sure if that will have a negative impact on my applications this year...

In terms of doing a Phd in the UK, I would say don't do it unless you want to stay in the UK. Also, funding is hard to come by and, even though university is cheaper there, if you're a foreign student it's a lot of money to pay just for the privilege of writing your thesis and occasionally meeting with an advisor. You wont be getting teaching experience and you will be spending a lot of time on your own.

Feel free to message me if you have any more specific questions and I can do my best to help...

[lyonessrampant]

lyonessrampant: Would the age factor be a disadvantage if you started your MA later, but applied to PhD programs immediately after? Is the number of years spent outside of academia more of an issue than age per se? Thanks!

I should have clarified that time out is the problem, so if you're coming recently from an MA that should be fine. It's really time away from the field (more than a couple years) that is an issue.

Edited to add that I am not sure about age. . .I am 29 and the second oldest in my cohort. The average age of a humanities Ph.D. is early 30s. . .but that's including people who have been doing Ph.D. work for sometimes 5-10 years as well. It also depends on the type of program. The average entry age for most of the top ten programs is closer to mid20s. I don't think it makes or breaks an application by any means, but the same programs that tend to prefer their admits don't have an MA are also the programs with the youngest entry age profiles.

Edited April 6, 2012 by lyonessrampant

[hiphopanonymous]

Thanks so much for all of the helpful responses! Another question: how much does age play a role in admissions? (i.e. if you are in your late 20's when applying to PhD programs).

This is totally anecdotal and therefore probably unhelpful, but I met an amazing lady at one of my visits who was in her mid forties and a new admit. She'd been ABD in Renaissance at a top ten program a long time ago but left without the dissertation, was away from academia for fifteen years, then came back to do contemporary pop culture at a different top ten program. Awesome stories abound. I wouldn't worry about being exactly like every other candidate. If you can articulate your interests in a critically current way (that second part is important), I think you're probably viable whatever your age. It's just a question of getting the pieces of writing in order.

And for what it's worth I will have been away from the English department for four years when I head back in the fall. And I wasn't teaching or taking classes in the meantime. I relied a lot on advisors, friends, and family (in and out of academia) who read my statement. And I'm very lucky that my college professors were still willing to work with me on that stuff. But my time away from school helped me put the kinds of critical questions I was interested in asking in some sort of perspective, and I think I was a better candidate for it. So there are pros and cons, I suppose. Again, anecdotal, not helpful, &c. Just sayin'.

[Francophile1]

Regarding language proficiency for comparative literature programs: most programs will want you to have a primary foreign language and one or two secondary foreign languages. For the primary foreign language, the best evidence of preparedness is having already done course work (preferably graduate-level) in the language. For the secondary languages, all you need at the time of application is reading ability.

Comp lit programs receive fewer applicants per spot than English programs do, which might suggest that English is more competitive. However, there is a self-selecting process. Per my experience, comp lit applicants are less likely to be coming straight from undergrad.

Many UK universities accept US loans and they list this on their sites.