Making Decisions / Info on U Chicago, UVa

[hopskipjump]

I just came across this site a couple of days ago, and it's been a blessing. I was stressing out about application letters like mad--and, though I assume I've been rejected from places like Berkeley and U Penn (neither of which I've heard back from yet), at least it's a relief to have a general sense of when these letters are going out.

I have a dilemma--an enviable one, as it turns out. I have been accepted to both UVa and U Chicago, and am trying to make up my mind where to go. I saw a post or two out there asking about U Chicago letters: they sent me an email on February 10th, accepting me, offering me funding, and inviting me up to visit the campus. I don't know what that means for people who have not been contacted--personally, I was really hoping to get accepted to Stanford or Berkeley, and am still hoping that somehow I'll get a letter from them--but anyway, there it is. I also know that someone asked for advice on applying to UC--all I really did was emphasize that I was really interested in conducting research in philosophy as well as literature; that, in particular, I wanted to study Paul Ricoeur (who taught at UC at one point) and Thomas Aquinas, and use their theories of metaphor and analogy to conduct my English studies. Talking to their professors, I get the impression that they're just really into interdisciplinary research (and maybe particularly interested in the English-film studies and the English-Philosophy combos). I was lucky in that I triple-majored in Philosophy, History, and English, and I dedicated my Statement of Proposed Research to making my interdisciplinary leanings clear--maybe I was not so lucky in that I sent the same SoPR to every school I applied to, and it seems places like Berkeley, U Penn, and Duke (I have definitely been rejected from Duke) were not so into the idea. I'm still waiting on the Ivies, though, so we'll see, but having been rejected from Duke (and, I am assuming, from U Penn and Berkeley), I don't have very high hopes. Like the people from the "Admissions procedures" thread, I definitely feel the sting of being rejected (even though I was lucky enough to get into UVa and UC)--I had a 3.97 GPA in college, got High Honors in history, and worked as a Fulbright Teaching Assistant in Spain for a year, right out of college. I also studied like a madman for the English subject GRE's, and got a 720 (for the regular GRE's, I got 720 verbal and 740 math). The dream is Harvard, but it is just that--a pipe dream.

In any event, I was certainly lucky enough to get accepted to both UVa and U Chicago, and now, as a means to procrastinate (but also as a means to get informed advice from informed people who probably know a lot more about all this than I do), I would like some advice. UVa has not only accepted me--it has offered me a 30,000 dollar a year stipend. U Chicago, on the other hand, has offered 19,500 a year, and cannot raise the offer (and yes, I asked). As it turns out, though, at least according to US News & Rankings, U Chicago is ranked higher (number six in the country, as opposed to UVa's 12th). Not only that, but U Chicago, as I mentioned above, seems far more into the idea of letting me take philosophy--in fact, even the English professors at UC are philosophically inclined, mentioning "The Frankfurt School" and Merleau-Ponty as influences (as opposed to the usual Lacan, Derrida, Foucalt, Bakhtin, etc.). However, UVa does have a much stronger Modernist department, something which UC pretty much lacks entirely. I spoke to a UC professor, and she said they would be hiring at least one 20th century professor by the end of the year, and one specifically Modernist scholar within the next two years. For the record, I am interested in the relationship between Modernist and Medieval literature--and UC and UVa both have magnificent medievalists, though in this case, UC might have the upper hand (given that it is specifically Medieval philosophical literature that I'm interested in). In sum, what the hell do I do? I realize that UVa might have a better rep among Modernists in the country, but UC's English Phd program is better ranked (historically speaking, if you look at the US News & Rankings from the last ten years or so), and surely if they are making a concerted effort to improve their 20th century faculty, their rep among Modernists will be solid by the time I graduate, no? But then there's the whole money thing. And surely UVa is still prestigious, as far as PhD's in English go?

Anyway, if there's anybody who wants to procrastinate, I'd love some advice. And in the meantime, if there is anything I can advise anybody on, as far as what worked for UC/UVa, let me know. (Personally, I am dying to know from those of you who got into Duke or Berkeley--What on earth did you do??).

[llerri]

Let me preface this by saying that I am no expert on how UC and UVA PhDs are specifically viewed by hiring committees, and I have not attended either institution. Common sense, though, tells me that they are both coveted, and I would not let a minute difference in somewhat arbitrary rankings make the decision for you (any school in the top fifteen or so is very presitigious).

You seem torn between the academic strengths of both institutions, and each has its points, so that's a bit of a wash. You could go back and forth endlessly comparing the two. If anything, I'd lean more towards the school that has the parts in place than the one that is planning to hire someone in the next couple of years. Plans can be deffered, especially in the midst of this financial mess.

What it would come down to for me is living very comfortably (relatively speaking) on $30,000 a year (an astounding stipend in the humanities!) in a place that is not expensive (Charlottesville) versus just getting by on less than $20,000 in a pricer urban center. I know that all great artists are willing to sacrifice for their art, but this seemes senseless. You could very well end up taking loans merely to survive at UC, and if not, you'd be living a pauper's life for at least six to seven years and then entering an always shaky job market. Since, by your own admission, both schools would be great fits for you, and both are highly prestigious, I would choose UVA, cutting down on financial stress and preserving my mental health and day-today happiness.

If you need one more reason to go south, reportedly the Hyde Park area of Chicago is not a particularly pleasant place to live (I'll let you do your own research to determine how you would feel about Hyde Park- tastes vary), while Charlottesville is a pretty town with good year-round weather compared to Chicago's challenging winters. Chicago does have more big-city excitement (duh), but Charlottesville has many cultural amenities for a city of its size and is a only couple of hours away from DC.

Either way, you can't lose. Congratulations and good luck with the decision!

[Comfect]

I don't have much to add to the above -- my congratulations on those acceptances, and best luck in the future -- except that this is exactly the situation recruitment/interview weekends were designed for. Go to both schools, meet with the faculty, meet the graduate students, check out the area, check out the institutional resources, and then ask yourself where you want to be for the foreseeable future. And remember that, as mentioned above, there's going to be a major economic difference between that astounding 30,000 dollars in Charlottesville and 19,500 dollars in Chicago.

[Liz]

If I were in your situation, I would definitely choose Virginia, even though I specialize in Renaissance lit (a strength at Chicago) and actually live in Chicago. The U of C area, as mentioned by a previous poster, has a very mixed reputation. The area is pretty dodgy, and the parts that aren't are expensive as hell--not places you would be able to afford at $19,500 a year. You could, of course, live in a less expensive area of the city, but public transit is a disgrace, parking in that area is at least $3/hr, the Olympics might come to the city (more debt for an already poorly run, corrupt city), and the weather is just plain bad. We've just been ranked as the third most miserable city in the country, and I wholeheartedly agree with it! Perhaps this is turning into a diatribe against the city in general, but U of C also has a reputation for being particularly demanding of their grad students (see the following article: http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/s ... ss/080501/). But things at the school are a-changing, so it would probably behoove you to speak to come current students when you visit the campus (definitely a must). These are my two cents, but you probably should count them for all that much.

And to answer your question, hopskipjump, I was lucky enough to get into Berkeley and am still astounded by it. From the professor I spoke to, my personal history statement left quite an impression (I got into "dream" schools as an undergrad, couldn't go because I was paying my own way, went to a state school and excelled, have dedicated myself to diversifying graduate education). And from the other schools I've spoken to, the writing sample was paramount. Still, I think an element of luck/fortune/chance cannot be discounted....

Good luck making a tough (but enviable) decision!

[LOLhedgefunds]

Congrats on what are two very, very good offers. 30k a year is amazing; as previous posters have said, I would not take that 10k a year lightly. That said, I believe there are major advantages to being in a real city (Charlottesville is very fratty and not very interesting), and I find Chicago's faculty to be very exciting (and I think their focus on rigorous interdisciplinary work is both unique and very appealing). You should visit both.

If one has not heard from Chicago , should one simply assume that one has not gotten in? Did those of you who've heard back from them get emails or letters?

[hadunc]

First of all, what great offers! You are really lucky to have two awesome options on the table. Congrats!

Personally, I would take the UVA offer. 30,000 a year should go a very long way in Charlottesville and UVA is an excellent school. My mom actually got her masters there (speech pathology, not english) and absolutely loved it. But more importantly, I believe U Chicago does not offer any teaching assistantships. Although technically U Chicago is ranked higher (though they are so close, I don't think there is any real meaning in this), you might find it more difficult to find a job post PhD if you go there and don't get any teaching experience. Although prestige helps, I have been told that once you get into the job market it is experience that they are looking for, not the name of your school. Also, it seems your interests would probably not fit with U Chicago as well. Apparently it has a reputation for being a bit too traditional in the way that they approach theory. But then, maybe they are trying to turn that around since they are obviously encouraging interdisciplinary work. Still, I would go with UVA.

[lyonessrampant]

Hi, I don't think I have a lot to add, but I did my MA at UC last year and lived in the infamously dodgy Hyde Park. I also moved there from Montana. While I didn't come from a small town in Montana, ANY town in Montana is small compared to Chicago. At first, I pretty much hated it. I hate humidity and it is oppressively hot until, like, November in Chicago. I didn't find the winter that bad, but then again, I am from Montana, home of the coldest place on record in the lower 48. .. a dubious distinction I know. By the time I left, I found myself missing a big city, this from a girl who swore she'd never want to live in one. Hyde Park can be a bit shocking, but live closer to UC and it really isn't that bad. I would disagree that the public transit is a mess. If you take the Metra, which goes from Hyde Park to downtown, you get to the "Magnificent Mile" in about 10 or 15 minutes. The shopping, museums, theater, live entertainment, music, etc., makes Chicago quite distinct, and I loved the lake. There is a 20+ mile paved running/biking path that goes North-South. I used to go for runs all the time. From Hyde Park (and UC) you're about .5 to 1 mile away. From downtown, you can take the L most anywhere. The bus lines are a bit more complex, but I'd still say they're pretty navigable. I absolutely loved the UC campus and the Regenstein library is AWESOME! I took all medieval and Renaissance lit courses. If you're interested in medievalism, check out Mark Miller. He has a book coming out in the next year or so, but the one he's published already is called Philosophical Chaucer. He's pretty influenced by psychoanalytic thought, but he is well versed and very open to other strands of critical and philosophical inquiry. I found him to be the best lecturer I've ever had and he's great in a seminar style class as well. Basically, I WISH I had your conundrum, but even if I did, I think that I'd be tempted by the offer from UVa. Chicago IS an expensive city. My husband and I had what was called a 2 bedroom apartment through grad housing. It was only a little over 700 square feet. Our room didn't have a closet. There was one big closet in the "spare" room, which was also about the size of a closet. The rent was $917 + $40/month for a parking spot in a secured lot + utilities. You can get a studio through grad housing, however, for around $600 (not very nice), and there are a lot of non-UC owned housing options. We found a spacious 2 bedroom for $850 that had wood floors we almost moved into. Sorry for the boring details but I appreciate your help in detailing what your application looked like, which I plan to use when potentially reapplying next year, and I'd like to give you as much information as possible. Given the living cost, you don't have a lot of extra money for enjoying the city. There are lots of free/cheap things to do, but the museums are expensive to visit and shows and shopping obviously cost money. That extra $10,000 could go a long way. If you have undergrad debt, you might be able to pay a lot of that off and complete your Ph.D. free and clear of debt (an enviable option). I'd agree with the people who say to visit both campuses. Talk to lots of people and then make up your mind. I really enjoyed the graduate environment at UC. I have lots of Ph.D. friends, and I didn't find their teaching burden high at all. Some only taught 1 class a quarter for 1 of 3 quarters in the regular year. The workshops are an excellent forum to discuss your own writing and work with other students, profs, and visiting scholars on topics you are interested in. The profs, in my experience, don't have the same interdepartmental bickering that I've heard plagues some schools (I've heard Columbia is particularly bad in this regard), and I was pleasantly surprised by the personal interest shown in me (only an MA student) at a research institution. Anyway, let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll do my best to answer them. Good luck!

[hopskipjump]

Thank you guys for the advice! As of now, I'm actually leaning towards U of C -- not only because it's Chicago, but because, from the emails I've received (which have been four times as many as the ones I've gotten from UVa) it sounds like UC is really interested in the kind of philosophical/literary research that I want to study--despite the fact that it is not at all what I would consider "Englishy." It just sounds like there are a ton of really excited (and exciting) teachers at UC, willing to really spend time and energy helping me organize my interests and give shape to a dissertation. I am definitely going to visit both UVa and UC, but anyway, that's where I stand now.

[DEClarke85]

Good luck... I do hope they show similar interest in me... and soon... :|

[lyonessrampant]

I don't mean to be a downer DEClark, but I'm sure with a reasonable level of certainty that if you haven't heard from UC, you're not going to be admitted to the Ph.D. If you don't have an MA and the English department liked your app, they'll refer you to the MA program (my situation when I applied in 07). If that's the case, you'll get an email from them around the first week of March that will simultaneously say no go on Ph.D. and talk about the MA. However, I may be wrong. Of course, until the actual rejection comes, noone knows for sure. Good luck!

[immersion]

I really want to be calm and not be an ass whole but its astounding to me that someone so smart (at least on paper) can be silly enough to care about rankings?!?!? Who, in their right mind, actually looks at US News and World Report for advice about what PhD program they should attend? For your undergraduate decision making, US News and World Report might have given you some sense of the schools general quality but within the context of a PhD ALLL you should care about is which place will give you the space and intellectual support you need to get your work done--prestige and the such should flow naturally from that criterion.

It blows my mind and makes me so angry...I'm not sure if its a complex that folks who don't go to Ivy League schools somehow build up but, honestly, as some one who does go to a really well-known ivy league school: get over it.

UVA and UChicago are world renowned institutions for folks who are serious about their work.....r u sure you really want this degree?

[lyonessrampant]

Immersion--I think your reaction is more than a little insensitive and exaggerated. So what if hopskipjump looks at the rankings. I think all of us have at least LOOKED at the rankings and consider them when deciding what schools to research. Look all over this forum and you'll see people talking about appling to "top 10," "top tier," and "top 20" schools. Where do you think those labels come from if not rankings? Granted, they are pretty arbitrary and often aren't predicative of the quality of the institution and/or the ability of a student to fit well into the school. We're all stressed out enough about this whole process. I appreciate the forum's general attitude of congeniality and support. Let's try to keep things that way, especially if the comment is pretty unsolicited and doesn't really add much to the topic of the thread anyway. Just my 2 cents.

[DEClarke85]

You'll get an email from them around the first week of March that will simultaneously say no go on Ph.D. and talk about the MA. However, I may be wrong. Of course, until the actual rejection comes, noone knows for sure. Good luck!

When I saw that others had posted their acceptance (and heard that many of those notification e-mails ended up in "SPAM" and "JUNK MAIL" folders), I e-mailed them and asked if they had sent a response out to me yet. I explained that I had heard of people already getting notified and that I delete my SPAM without looking at it. Their response said that they had not sent out any notifications (official or unofficial), and that I should wait until approximately March 6 before I could expect to hear anything from them.

I don't have an MA yet, but I will be graduating from Sam Houston State University (in Huntsville, TX) with my MA in English on August 8, 2009.

[hopskipjump]

Inmersion-- just my quick two cents on the rankings issue. First of all, I am not trying to find out which one is better ranked--that is one easy piece of statistics that I can find by just going onto US News and Rankings. I am trying to get a feel, from people who have perhaps gotten M.A.'s at these graduate schools, or at least have visited these places before, about what their take was as far as living costs, actual interactions with faculty, etc. Ranking *is* an important part of the decision: U Chicago has a much, much better placement record than UVa, and that is due to external factors that have nothing to do with my particular interests. Moreover: I was born and raised in southern Mexico, and wish to eventually return there, a few years after getting my PhD. Prestigious though UVa may be in the States, I am going to have a hard time finding a job in a foreign country with a PhD in English literature--unless that degree is from a school that people have at least heard of abroad. This is not to say that ranking is the only way to make a choice between schools. Money is an obvious factor--and again, it is one that matters, regardless of what your particular interests may be (if you don't think that's true, just look through the first few postings on this thread. Money does matter--and rankings do too). The actual place you're going to be living in is important, and in this sense lyonessrampant's comments were really, really useful. And OF COURSE the actual program of study matters--the faculty, the course load, the teaching assistantships. But let's not kid ourselves: if you got into both the University of Puerto Rico and the University of California, Berkeley, do you think the respective rankings of the schools would not enter into your decision?

Final point. Since my last post, I have been accepted to Yale as well--and not only is it higher ranked, it is offering me a lot more money than Chicago. And yet--in part because of posts like those by lyonnessrampant, and in part because of the emails I have received from the Chicago faculty--I am leaning heavily towards the U of C. Rankings matter, but they're not the end all and be all of the admissions process either.

[immersion]

Hey Guys,

I wanted to respond with a final note about rankings because I do think this is really important. I would in fact go to the University of Puerto Rico if it had the strongest faculty within my respective field (and if I liked beaches and warm weather and I had decent money). Furthermore, you can't use the overall school placement record as a substantive measurement because placement is interest specific. For example, Duke has a horrrrible placement record in English but has one of the highest placement records in African American literature. And, coincidentally, UChicago has a horrible record with Af Am lit but according to you has a pretty strong overall placement record. But don't take my word for it, there is a Chronicle Article (which I can't find right now) that does a pretty detailed explanation of the problems with the whole thing. Or, better yet, how about you ask your faculty and reccomenders what they think about rankings...god willing, they'll agree with me.

Now you might have a point with the money thing...highly ranked private schools tend to hand out more dough but, I would hasten to ask, at what cost? And certainly a lower ranked public school who is pretty well-known for a specific field will give the world to a savvy applicant who understands the program's quality as represented through his or her's dossier. University of Washington, for example, has one of the most sophisticated cultural studies programs in the country if not the world. University of Wisconsin has one of the best quantitative sociology programs in the country while Yale has a relatively mediocre (some one would say down-right crappy) one. Maybe I was too harsh but I would agree with lyonessrampant in terms of the constant references to rankings on this site and so perhaps I took my anger out on you. I just pray to god that these aren't the people who I'll meet in the professoriate..I also got into Yale btw (its my home institution as well) and I, too, won't be going in favor of a school with a lower rank.

I want to be around ppl. who are so passionate about their subject and the field which they hope to pursue that God himself couldn't keep them for pursuing that interest...I want to be surrounded by folks who admire intellectual production and not social admiration...and, I imagine, those are the people who make it through in tact...

On that note..I do really want to wish you the best of luck!

[hopskipjump]

And on that note, inmersion, and out of curiosity: Why are you *not* going to Yale? Is it that it is not as good for your particular specialty? Or is it that you found people there pretentious and/or rankings-obsessed?

(I'm not trying to be facetious, btw--just trying to get your take on the program and the place)